BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / Does Sherlock's Love for John Make him a Better Man?

**Posted by Snootiegirl99** September 4, 2014 11:24 pm

I'm splitting this from another thread where several of us expressed that Sherlock's love for John pulls him through torture and separation and failure and death.

Whether it is platonic love, brotherly love, or a great love than either of those combined, there is a deep connection between the two characters (I know from the other thread that at least some of you agree with me here).

So in Series 3, we get to see Sherlock transform from the child to the adult. He learns to consider others before himself. He tries to change himself for the one he loves. He goes out of his comfort zone and pushes others to do the same for John. Sherlock is transforming in Series 3. He's not the same man (character) as he was in Series 1 or 2. You can see hints of his transformation being planted in those 6 episodes, but Series 3 bears the fruit. And I suspect Series 4 will be even more laden.

Cases in point:
1. Sherlock learns that even within his unselfish motives for disappearing for two years to protect John, there was also the deep selfishness of not trusting John with the secret.
2. Sherlock learns to vocalize his appreciation and need for John--even in front of other people.
3. Sherlock learns that John having other relationships in his life is not a situation that threatens his place in John's life or heart.
4. His pursuit of Magnussen seems much more selfless than his pursuit of other cases. He constructs much more elaborate approaches to this one and sacrifices his own personal comfort for it. And that's before he even knew that M had info on Mary.
5. Sherlock literally drops everything to save John from the bonfire.

There are more, please add your own.

**Posted by Liberty** September 5, 2014 7:20 am

1. Sherlock is being selfless by not telling John. He really, really wants to (he says), but presumably keeps quiet to protect John and to rid the world of Moriarty's network.

Sorry, got to rush, but this is a really interesting thing to discuss and hopefully I can catch up after work!

**Posted by silverblaze** September 6, 2014 10:04 pm

Interesting topic. I'm not so sure about 1, though. He disappeared to dismantle the network, not to protect John. The reason why he didn't let John in to the secret was that it would have jeopardise the whole situation.

I really wonder what they will pull out, character arc wise, in season 4. I would suspect that he'd become a bit more detached again, because I think they've gone as far as possible on the emotional Sherlock scale.

Moffat said somewhere that having an emotional life does not make him a better person and that makes a lot of sense. However, I also believe that bonding to another person is the ONLY thing that can make someone a better person.

**Posted by Snootiegirl99** September 6, 2014 10:15 pm

silverblaze wrote:
Interesting topic. I'm not so sure about 1, though. He disappeared to dismantle the network, not to protect John. The reason why he didn't let John in to the secret was that it would have jeopardise the whole situation.

I really wonder what they will pull out, character arc wise, in season 4. I would suspect that he'd become a bit more detached again, because I think they've gone as far as possible on the emotional Sherlock scale.

Moffat said somewhere that having an emotional life does not make him a better person and that makes a lot of sense. However, I also believe that bonding to another person is the ONLY thing that can make someone a better person.

You know, I was kind of thinking the same thing. He faked his death to keep Moriarty's people from hounding him as he went after them. But the 'protect John' sentiment seemed to be strong here, and I started to think maybe that was the way to go. He might have said after his return that he did it to protect John, but the idea of faking your death in front of someone who cares about you is not an act of caring or protection. And why didn't Mycroft just drop a hint or two John's way?

**Posted by Liberty** September 6, 2014 10:31 pm

I don't think anyone could let John know because he was being watched. (There's a theory that Mary is doing the watching). The faked death was entirely to save other people, including John. The Fall and the ensuing exile is extremely selfless, in my opinion. Shooting Magnusson just develops something that is already there (in my opinion, again!).

I think that Sherlock is actually a better person than anyone thinks he is (probably better than he thinks he is, although I don't think he wastes time worrying about that) and that it shows through his relationship with John. I also thinks he loves humanity much more than he claims to .

I agree that he can't go much further in that direction, and I'm really curious about S4.

Last edited by Liberty (September 6, 2014 10:47 pm)

**Posted by Snootiegirl99** September 7, 2014 12:33 am

I suspect that Mycroft's question to John "He chooses to be a detective. What does that tell us about the nature of his heart?" Shows that Sherlock has a very big heart. Why else would he turn his energy and personal safety toward helping people who were victims of crimes? Yes, they are puzzles, but there are other puzzles in this world to solve too.

Alone keeps me safe, he says. But that doesn't necessarily sound like it's his first choice. Ah, so complex.

**Posted by Zatoichi** September 7, 2014 6:04 am

Snootiegirl99 wrote:
You know, I was kind of thinking the same thing. He faked his death to keep Moriarty's people from hounding him as he went after them. But the 'protect John' sentiment seemed to be strong here, and I started to think maybe that was the way to go.

The "protect John" sentiment is indeed strong within the fandom, and of course it is one important factor for Sherlock's actions, but there are so many other strong factors, too, that I don't agree with making it the most prominent one. He never only protected John with his actions, there were always other lives at stake, too. As well as the security of the free world, but never mind that.. ^^

100% agree with your last post, Snootiegirl99! If he hadn't always been a good man he couldn't have gathered so many grateful people around him even before ASiP. John makes him more understanding of human nature and he is his compass in social situations, but he doesn't make him a better man at heart or is his moral compass, he doesn't need assistance for that (although not being alone without doubts increases his potential to do good).

**Posted by Liberty** September 7, 2014 6:55 am

Yes, I think in HLV, John is the focus and protecting him is what motivates Sherlock to come back from the dead.   But he has protected people all along, and I agree about Mycroft's comment.   John just shows what's already there. (If anything, John could be a bad influence, with some of his faults! Luckily Sherlock doesn't emulate him when it comes to those).

In fact, I believe Sherlock's reasons for wanting to get rid of Moriarty in the first place are noble, and nothing to do with personal gain or glory.   And I think that episode, particularly the end of TRF and the beginning of TEH show the extreme lengths of personal sacrifice he will go to to save others.   (They practically show him as Jesus, in my opinion - the angelic light round his head on the rooftop, the "crucifixion" in Serbia).

In ASIB, I believe Sherlock protects Irene throughout - protection is a theme in that episode.   I think he deliberately misidentifies Irene's body to protect her (I know not everybody agrees), and I imagine rescuing her was a risky business.   Mary gets it right in TSOT when she says that Sherlock works better "because it matters now" - he's not driven by the intellectual challenge, but by saving people.   There are times when I think there are hints of how much he wants to save people throughout the series. I think he seems cold-hearted because he doesn't seem to care much when people die. I think he does care but thinks it's not an advantage - he can't save them when they are dead. But he will go to extraordinary lengths to save the living.

The "alone protects me" line, I agree isn't his first choice. In context, it's said when he knows he's going to have to be completely alone for the next couple of years, and when he has to make John leave him (so that he can set up the "suicide").   In fact, being alone is to protect other people, not him.   It's very much not about him not caring for other people.

Last edited by Liberty (September 7, 2014 7:38 am)

**Posted by A lovely light** September 7, 2014 9:01 am

Sherlock is a good man from the beginning, no doubt. But some parts of being good needs awakening and chanelling and that is what John does. Let's remember how Sherlock reacts more to the game than because he cares for the persons in ASIP and in TGG. And is also telling that John gets his danger not from everybody, he chooses carefully and chooses a person witch he thinks is a good person. He could have choose Mycroft, he could have gone for Moriarty, but he chooses and is very loyal very quickly and believe till the end in Sherlock. Not because Sherlock gives him what he needs, but because he thinks that Sherlock is the best man he ever know. And Sherlock needs to accept his emotions and let them grow instead of thinking that they are second to the rationality and not of use.

About being a detective, i think he choosed that because he needs excitment and is bored quite quickly . As a chemist, i can tell you that chemistry practice is often routine job with a lot of routine steps even when you come to a spectacular find, the way till that is sometimes very boring and repetitive. His mind is too quick and needs to think too much, while for the chemistry practice you have to be very patient (this apply for the most sciences). You need to work years to get a result.

**Posted by Liberty** September 7, 2014 9:13 am

That's very interesting. So why did Sherlock choose chemistry? (It reminds me of John choosing GP practice instead of another branch of medicine, when it didn't seem to suit his personality).

I was going to say that being a pirate would have been exciting, but it probably would involve a lot of boredom, actually.

I didn't think of John deliberately choosing a good person. It's clear that he's drawn to the danger, and there are hints at the beginning that Sherlock really is not a good person and is genuinely dangerous (I think even John shows a little doubt when he sees that Sherlock has the suitcase at 221B in ASIP). But you could be right, because of course Sherlock good and by TRF we definitely see John having faith in his motivations.

**Posted by besleybean** September 7, 2014 9:20 am

What a brilliant thread title.
Depends on definitions, as usual.
I will always stand by Sherlock and I am certain he does things for the right motives...though I won't always agree with his actions.
His love for John is admirable, but it's this love that made Sherlock a muderer...

**Posted by A lovely light** September 7, 2014 9:56 am

Chemistry is amazing to study, very interesting science, brings to the roots of all things (together with physik). Very satisfing for analytical minds. But the practice is far from glamorous. Perhaps was also the influence of the mother that he choose to study it, she is also a scientist.

**Posted by Schmiezi** September 7, 2014 5:31 pm

besleybean wrote:
His love for John is admirable, but it's this love that made Sherlock a muderer...

This the interesting starting point for his developement in S4. He has killed an unarmed man, basically executed him. His motives were noble, no doubt, but I think (and hope) that we will see his conscience haunting him next series.

**Posted by A lovely light** September 7, 2014 5:36 pm

I think it already hunts him on Tarmac scene...

**Posted by Schmiezi** September 7, 2014 5:37 pm

A lovely light wrote:
I think it already hunts him on Tarmac scene...

Oh, I never consodered that. Makes sense.

**Posted by besleybean** September 7, 2014 5:50 pm

See I think Sherlock knew what it would mean, before he even pulled the trigger.
He knew it meant he would never see John again...or at least only at prison visiting.
But he sacrificed his happiness for John's peace of mind and safety.

**Posted by Schmiezi** September 7, 2014 5:53 pm

I completely agree with you, besley.

But knowing what it would mean does not mean you cannot regret it or emotionally suffer from the consequenses.

Well, now that I think about it, I do not fully agree with you. I doubt that Sherlock knew what jumping down the rooftop would mean. Not fully. He still thought he could easily waltz back into John's life afterwards. I think that he only learned what it meant when they were reunited.

**Posted by besleybean** September 7, 2014 5:58 pm

Sorry, I was only referring to Sherlock shooting CAM.

**Posted by Liberty** September 7, 2014 6:01 pm

Yes, I think that he did know what shooting CAM would mean. I think you can see him coming to terms with what he's got to do after he finds out there are no vaults.

**Posted by A lovely light** September 7, 2014 6:02 pm

besleybean wrote:
But he sacrificed his happiness for John's peace of mind and safety.

I am not so sure that John is at peace that someone, and especially Sherlock, killed that he would be safe. He looks as well very uneasy and confused on the Tarmac.

I think that Cam death haunts both of them and both of them have to deal with it.