Solar, there's a whole thread in this very forum dedicated to the question of what happened to Moriarty's corpse, if there was indeed such a thing.

Zatoichi wrote:

Ha, thank you, now I understand why John´s "drama queen" in TSoT bothers me so much - because he is exactly the contrary when things get serious. Sherlock can throw his little fits and sulk quite impressively, but if it comes to real hardships and sufferings he carries them all alone. 

LOL, I think it's really funny how everybody seems to hate that scene in TSOT. I love it! The pace, the rush, the high stakes, it works for me beautifully.

Sherlock is a drama queen and he loves it and so do we. The "Bored!" scene sums it up very nicely. He even says so himself in HLV when he projects Mary's portrait onto the building: "I never could resist a touch of drama." Which is, btw, a quote straight out of ACD's book canon. And I can't help feeling that he is a bit of a drama queen after all even in this scene in TSOT. He is a little hectic in it, not quite totally cool and in control of things.

But what I find hilarious about this comment is that the true drama queen in this scene is actually the person that makes it, meaning John. It's not one of John's greatest moments, I admit, but he's deeply worried about Sholto and probably quite unsettled by all these absurd goings on at his wedding party. So it's really he who's being overly dramatic in that scene. Which is why Sherlock promptly replies "In fairness, he's (John's) a drama queen, too." And then it gets even funnier when Mary says "yeah, I know" in this completely dry and calm way, proving once again that John has a point when he tells them in HLV that they should have got married.

Incidentally, another moment I love where John is being the drama queen and Sherlock deliberately takes a step back and isn't is in TSOT in the Bloody Guardsman scene when John discovers that Private Bainbridge is still alive and YELLS at the officers to go and get an ambulance and then tells his "nurse" what to do to help. I love the look Sherlock gives John at that moment, and just shuts up and does what he's told and lets John do what John does best. (I'm not good with screencaps, sorry. Maybe you know what I mean. Just rewatch it.)

Anyway what I was really trying to say, in reply to  Zatoichi, is that I don't feel that this comment of John's in that particular situation signifies a general disregard for Sherlock's (usually very competent) way of handling a crisis. It just signifies annoyance at one of Sherlock's favourite little peculiarities.

I'm sure if you asked John in a quiet moment whether Sherlock was good at handling a crisis or whether he'd ever let his inner drama queen get in the way, you'd get the right answer.
 

Last edited by La Jolie (September 4, 2014 3:49 pm)

Actually, lots bothered me about TSOT, but that comment, not so much.  I took it as being about how Sherlock works - the idea that he's not a puzzle solver, but a "drama queen".  Out of the action (like Mycroft?), he might have struggled to get anywhere, but right there, when a life's at stake, against the clock, he's in his element.  As Mary says, "it matters now".   I think John is rude (nothing new for either of them).  After all, it was John who invited Sholto with his death wish and death threats, and inadvertently set up a murder.  But I do think he has a point. Sherlock isn't just about cold, logical reasoning.  There's that hot-blooded, dramatic, emotional element there.   He can perform much better if he's trying to save somebody. (That's the difference between the original case and the Sholto case).   I think Mary puts it better than John, but they're right. 

About Sherlock talking about the two years, I don't really mean an emotional spillage, but just him letting John know why he was there (dismantling Moriarty's network, to save other people, yet again) and what it was like (bloody awful, would be enough).   But I can accept that not being in the story.  It just makes me a little sad (not always a bad thing).   I just get the feeling that Sherlock is continuously misunderstood, not just by John.  People think he does things out of arrogance, and while there's an element of that and showing off, his major motivations are noble and honourable.  He strives to be a good person, but doesn't seem to need/want recognition for that. 

La Jolie wrote:

Just in case anyone still thinks that NOT disliking the violence at the reunion automatically means that you actually hate the character and want to see him destroyed.

Gah. Now I'm getting a bit emotional, I think. I'd better go away now.

No, I understand and agree with everything in your post.  I know you (and the others who like it) don't hate the character at all - I really don't get that impression.   And I want to see the character go through trials, and come through too.  I'm actually more bothered by the parts in TSOT where he's shown as foolish (not exactly the word I'm looking for, but it'll do).  That, I don't want to see and can't believe in or assimilate into my view of the character.  My reaction to this particular scene is personal (I was not at all upset by the Serbia scene, for instance, which is much more violent).  I don't like how it's altered my view of what I saw as a beautiful friendship, but I can deal with that.  I don't want it be all cosy and nice, really.  And clearly I like other, potentially disturbing scenes, so I'm not judging anyone who likes this one. 

Last edited by Liberty (September 4, 2014 9:07 pm)

nakahara wrote:

It therefore disturbs me that Sherlock S3 seems to propagate an idea that a man with an exceptional abilities whose way of doing things is eccetric but otherwise beneficial has to be physically punished, humiliated and broken for his difference. That´s just wrong, wrong, wrong!

Thank you so much for this! It speaks my heart, really.
As for the original topic, the violence really disturbs me and i am one of those people who don't think it necessary at all to have it. I am also in the fraction who thinks that Sherlock didn't let John know that he is still alive because i think John was still under observation and i am dead sure his behaviour would have changed if he would have learned that Sherlock is still alive. So i personally think Sherlock protected him by not letting him know he is not dead. I had not read any fan's ideas how the re-union should happen and only after having watched S3 i have realised that many fans expected that John would somehow physically assault Sherlock. I think it would have been perfectly effective if John would have stormed out of that restaurant and let Sherlock look like the way he behaved which is ~ an idiot! He did so in Hounds, no? Was pretty effective if you ask me, lead to Sherlock thinking it over and brought along the epic "i don't have friends, i just have one". There you are. 
I also agree that John judged Sherlock on very little information. As tough as it would have been to listen to Sherlock patiently but why not let him explain? Instead attacking him again and again and even saying that he is not even interested anymore to learn why he did what he did. 
John physically assaults him, Molly hits him. i almost wanted Sherlock to say "oh, seems to be Sherlock-hitting time, who else wants to have a go, who else holds grudges and wants to have a bit of revenge, this is your time!" Seriously, there are these people who try to convince Sherlock that it is a blessing to have friends and then they treat him like that. If that is what friends do, better don't have any. 

Yes, I think John could have walked away, Lilith.  He does in the end, leaving Mary to check on Sherlock.  The violence here, put together with some other scenes, create an imbalance for me now: Sherlock is so much the better person, more giving, etc.  "I'll hit you if you upset me enough" versus "I'll die for you".  And yet, both of them seem to act as if it's the other way around.  It's funny, because at the beginning, I thought John was going to be the "good" one in the relationship.

I suppose that John hasn't had a chance to do anything really big for Sherlock in S3.  Maybe that will happen in S4.  I'm still going to have difficulty forgiving, but clearly Sherlock thinks there's nothing to forgive. 

Thank goodness for LeStrade!  I love that little scene at the beginning of TSOT (and Sherlock's reunion with him).   Not all Sherlock's friends hit him (I really hope they don't make LeStrade do it). 

Yes, Lestrade is a much more balanced character than PTSD-Trust-Issues-Adrenaline-Junkie Watson.  I can´t see him losing it like John lost it at the reunion scene..

I think both men act like John was the "good" one because these are the roles both feel most comfortable with. And if you look at them at a superficial level there´s even some truth to it, Sherlock keeps on hurting people´s feelings (Janine) while John keeps on caring for them (for god´s sake Sherlock, she loves you!). We know that beyond the surface they have all these layers (like onions, or cake.. sorry, I just watched Shrek ^^), and the interesting tension comes from their interactions mostly staying at the outer layer while we as the audience see deeper.

I agree that between the two of them there´s an imbalance in favour of Sherlock now, and I hope they´ll restore the balance of the universe some time in the not too distant future. 

La Jolie wrote:

I have great hopes of that imbalance being restored, too, Zatoichi. It's like we've been oscillating between two extremes over the course of the show - John keeping Sherlock right, Sherlock keeping John right... we might never get a proper, fixed, definite balance, otherwise what would Seasons 5, 6 and 7 be about? But I totally agree that it's John's turn now to do something for Sherlock, for a change. However, with the two possible big events coming up for John in S4, one very positive (birth of baby, happy family life), one very negative (loss of Mary and/or baby), I don't see how John will have much capacity for sparing a thought for Sherlock's wellbeing in the near future... but it really is his turn!

Hm, I'm rather hoping that none of them thinks that John owes Sherlock 'a favour' because Sherlock did what he did for John. Apart from the fact that John shot the cabbie in ASiP, that's not how real friendships should work, in my opinion. I am convinced that Sherlock is doing all these things for John because he truly loves him and cares for him. He doesn't expect anything in return - and that's just how it should be. Even if the audience feels that there is an imbalance of some sort and that it's 'John's turn' now. 
 

 

La Jolie wrote:

And we have seen Lestrade lose it in times of great stress and frustration. Remember the Waters gang in TSOT? If we're talking about getting bad vibes out of a scene because they're too reminiscent of real life domestic violence, what about Lestrade deliberately bumping the car door into Sally Donovan's back?

Speaking personally, it doesn't feel the same.  It's not a question of right or wrong (as I said, I think Molly was more in the wrong than John, but it doesn't disturb me so much).    It really doesn't feel personal.  He's having a tizzy and Sally's caught in the crossfire more than anything - it's as if he doesn't even notice her.  I'm not justifying it.  I don't like it either and it's wrong, but it doesn't feel domestic-violencey. 

But there's so much that's familiar about the restaurant scenes.  It's partly Sherlock's reaction, and I'm not victim-blaming, honestly, just saying that he way he responds feels to me like somebody in a domestic violence relationship - appeasing, accepting, blaming himself, trying to put things right.  (Well, OK, that's what I used to do - I wish it wasn't so, but it is.  I do have a bit of knowledge and experience beyond my own personal experience in this area, but don't want to claim to speak for anybody else.  I'm also aware, that statistically, there will be quite a few of us on this forum who have personal experience, unfortunately).   Also John feeling justified, the repeated violence, etc. 

I have a question though - everybody seems to be in agreement that the two years that Sherlock spent in exile must have been "hell" for him in every possible way. I wonder where you get that idea?

The only truly canonical information we have on those two years is what happened in the last  24 hours before his return to London (capture and torture in Serbia), and of course that's bad enough, but it doesn't mean that he's had two full years of nothing else.

He travelled around the world (according to MHR) and did what he loves and does best, solving crimes and tracking down criminals (Moriarty's network). Of course he didn't have his friends and he wasn't at home, and of course it must have been dangerous at times, and the very fact that Mycroft calls it a "holiday" suggests that it wasn't. But all that doesn't amount to "going through hell", for me, and it doesn't amount to any obligation on John's part to be particularly kind and considerate around Sherlock at their reunion for that reason. I personally think John's life during the exile, though outwardly safe and uneventful, must have been a much worse hell.
 

It's the hair!  No, seriously.  It suggests to me that he wasn't undercover in a pleasant way, and that he was surviving.  There were no clever disguises or detours into solving interesting cases along the way.  It would have taken him getting on for two years to grow hair that long, which makes me feel he was living in precarious circumstances for the whole time.   (Of course, I could be wrong.  He has obviously managed to shave at some point). 

I also think he'd be lonely - he's fairly social during S2, and then is forced into solitude.  Two years is an awful long time to be alone, homeless and in danger.   He clearly missed John a lot too (judging from the break in his voice when he says how much he wanted to get in touch with him).  

And during that time, he'd left behind a world which despised him.  Now, I think he's strong enough to take that, but still, it must hurt a bit to know that while he's going through this ordeal for other people, they think he's a fraud. 

Liberty wrote:

La Jolie wrote:

And we have seen Lestrade lose it in times of great stress and frustration. Remember the Waters gang in TSOT? If we're talking about getting bad vibes out of a scene because they're too reminiscent of real life domestic violence, what about Lestrade deliberately bumping the car door into Sally Donovan's back?

Speaking personally, it doesn't feel the same.  It's not a question of right or wrong (as I said, I think Molly was more in the wrong than John, but it doesn't disturb me so much).    It really doesn't feel personal.  He's having a tizzy and Sally's caught in the crossfire more than anything - it's as if he doesn't even notice her.  I'm not justifying it.  I don't like it either and it's wrong, but it doesn't feel domestic-violencey. 

But there's so much that's familiar about the restaurant scenes.  It's partly Sherlock's reaction, and I'm not victim-blaming, honestly, just saying that he way he responds feels to me like somebody in a domestic violence relationship - appeasing, accepting, blaming himself, trying to put things right.  (Well, OK, that's what I used to do - I wish it wasn't so, but it is.  I do have a bit of knowledge and experience beyond my own personal experience in this area, but don't want to claim to speak for anybody else.  I'm also aware, that statistically, there will be quite a few of us on this forum who have personal experience, unfortunately).   Also John feeling justified, the repeated violence, etc. 

I have a question though - everybody seems to be in agreement that the two years that Sherlock spent in exile must have been "hell" for him in every possible way. I wonder where you get that idea?

The only truly canonical information we have on those two years is what happened in the last  24 hours before his return to London (capture and torture in Serbia), and of course that's bad enough, but it doesn't mean that he's had two full years of nothing else.

He travelled around the world (according to MHR) and did what he loves and does best, solving crimes and tracking down criminals (Moriarty's network). Of course he didn't have his friends and he wasn't at home, and of course it must have been dangerous at times, and the very fact that Mycroft calls it a "holiday" suggests that it wasn't. But all that doesn't amount to "going through hell", for me, and it doesn't amount to any obligation on John's part to be particularly kind and considerate around Sherlock at their reunion for that reason. I personally think John's life during the exile, though outwardly safe and uneventful, must have been a much worse hell.
 

It's the hair!  No, seriously.  It suggests to me that he wasn't undercover in a pleasant way, and that he was surviving.  There were no clever disguises or detours into solving interesting cases along the way.  It would have taken him getting on for two years to grow hair that long, which makes me feel he was living in precarious circumstances for the whole time.   (Of course, I could be wrong.  He has obviously managed to shave at some point). 

I also think he'd be lonely - he's fairly social during S2, and then is forced into solitude.  Two years is an awful long time to be alone, homeless and in danger.   He clearly missed John a lot too (judging from the break in his voice when he says how much he wanted to get in touch with him).  

And during that time, he'd left behind a world which despised him.  Now, I think he's strong enough to take that, but still, it must hurt a bit to know that while he's going through this ordeal for other people, they think he's a fraud. 

You'd think if Sherlock were on a pleasant James-Bond-Adventure Vacation tour, he'd have managed to get his hair cut and not be clad in rags. ;-)

La Jolie wrote:

((((( Liberty )))))

I believe that I would see that scene in a totally different light, too, if I had any real life experiences that it might remind me of. I don't. That explains why I take the matter so lightly, of course. I know I'm very fortunate in that I can. Statistically I'm very lucky to have been spared anything of the sort.

I'd better shut up about this now, before I inadvertently hurt any more people's feelings so thoughtlessly.


So, on to something more cheerful:

Liberty wrote:

It's the hair! 

LOL, Sherlock the zombie drag queen! The hair looks OK in MHR, though. So maybe it was a wig after all. He was undercover!



Raven, I don't think that saying that Sherlock's two years were not as bad as John's automatically equates to making Sherlock into a villain. It's a relative statement, after all. And I put the question that way. I don't wonder whether Sherlock had a good time or a bad time, because it was obviously more bad than good. But I was wondering whether the two experiences really compare.


 

@La Jolie
I gotta watch the way I say things :-)  .. I'll ammend that statement to mean (loosely, and in the way we talk about people in relationships) The Bad Guy. As in, the one at fault.  

I thinking I'm wondering if part of the issue is that for some of us, John's *emotional pain and suffering* trumps what we only (somwhat) register as Sherlock's *physical pain*. Maybe we don't recognize that what he went through over two years has to produce a lot of trauma as well?

Now, for me-- I hate that John went through the trauma of seeing Sherlock jump, that we became a shell of a man. However, he did move on. But yes--he was very, very badly broken by this horrible experience. Traumatized, absolutley. 

I think Sherlock was every bit as traumatized by his own experience, and now we add aliention from his friends, feeling their anger and not their understanding, having lost everything he tried to build. His reputations, his work. And he's dealing with guilt, on top of it. But for Mycroft and Mrs. Hudson, he's basically on his own, after he comes back-- and I mean that--emotionally. He has no support. 

While Sherlock was gone, he had no-one. John had Mary to help him heal. 

Arrrgh! This whole thing is just so tragic!!!!! And Mofftiss wants to make the show *darker* in s4????

Nooooooooo!!!!!!!!!

Liberty wrote:

La Jolie wrote:

((((( Liberty )))))

I believe that I would see that scene in a totally different light, too, if I had any real life experiences that it might remind me of. I don't. That explains why I take the matter so lightly, of course. I know I'm very fortunate in that I can. Statistically I'm very lucky to have been spared anything of the sort.

I'd better shut up about this now, before I inadvertently hurt any more people's feelings so thoughtlessly.
 

Please don't think you've hurt my feelings!  I thought your question was interesting, but it's just really difficult for me to answer without saying where I'm coming from. (That bit of my life was a very long time ago, so not a recent thing that I'm still dealing with at all - but it's always going to have some sort of influence on how I see things.  My comments about statistics were because I wanted to say that I know there are other people who have gone through it or are going through it here, but I want to make it clear that I'm talking about how I feel and would hate anyone to think I'm telling people what they should feel!).

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

And I gotta say this: there's a scene in HLV that actually solidified the "oh-God-that's-an-abusive-behavior red flag for me-- John, during the confrontation scene. Liberty, when you see it (have you seen it yet?) you'll know exactly what I mean when you see it. 
 

I have seen it now.  I think TEH desensitised me a bit, so it didn't hit me so much .. and also, I do feel for John in that scene and think he's genuinely confused.  But ... yes, pretty bad.   One thing that bothered me about the restaurant scenes was that they established the threat of violence - that if Sherlock angered John, there was always the chance that he'd get hit.  And although there's no actual physical violence in HLV, John confirms the threat.   I don't think it matters if they're equally matched or even if Sherlock is bigger or stronger - because Sherlock won't hit back. 

I hate the "I feel bad, so it must be your fault" attitude that John has ... he has no reason to be angry with Sherlock, who is risking his life to help him.  I suppose that in some ways it's worse than the restaurant scenes.  This time he knows how ill Sherlock is, yet he still goes for him. 

@Liberty--

This is exactly what I'm talking about: In abusive relationships, one of the things that happens is that the abuser always blames the abusee-- even for their own problems. (And, yes, I'm a survivor of such a background, as well.)

The other thing that rang the alarm bells in my head was when John threatens Sherlock during the confrontation: he threatens to hit his friend whom his wife shot. 

And it's that sort of "If you don't do what I tell you, I'll hit you", mentality that pushes all my buttons. YIKES. 

About size difference: we should remember that there are many, many men who are physically abused by their smaller, weaker female partners. 

It's not about size, and it's not about gender. 

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (September 5, 2014 10:25 pm)