shycroft wrote:

So I know that John says he's forgiven her, but to me the forgiveness scene just didn't sit well with me. Theres two different theories swirling around in my head.

1. John really has, in his mind, forgiven her.
or
2. His forgiveness is utter BS, and part of a larger plan we don't know about. Let me explain:
John has serious trust issues. ...

Okay, the second theory seems convincing enough. Have been thinking about John's trust issues, too. What made me lean towards the first option, John truly forgiving her, is the way he seems inconsistent in his trust issues. He shouldn't at all be able to trust Sherlock after knowing him for one day - yet he does. On the one hand he has big trust issues, on the other hand he is ready to trust very quickly for no reason we know. I'm just not so sure John is really that easy to read. To me it seems that sometimes, he just *wants* to trust somebody (in this case: Mary) and tries to push aside all his fears and doubts just for the sake of it. Which surely isn't healthy, but maybe that's his attempt at trying to lead a "normal" life (which he doesn't really want, we know that, but does he know it too?).

The way the second theory could go puzzles me. Wouldn't it imply that John and Sherlock have been talking in detail about Mary, come up with a plan, and don't trust her at all? First, I cannot really see John and Sherlock are yet in such a place again where they would happily plot together against John's wife, and second, Sherlock knows Mary is dangerous yet he leaves John in her company without warning him off (which he definitely would do, if he had read the USB, knew some really bad stuff about her, and was worried about John).

The only possibility that comes to mind is that John and Sherlock are playing two different games with Mary, and don't know what the other knows or doesn't know. But Sherlock was so straightforward to push John to get to know Marys real self, why would he now keep John in the dark? He should know by now that keeping important stuff from John that concerns him personally will just have him once again in need for forgiveness from John - not sure Sherlock is keen of walking down that path again...

I just don't know... for me it seems more plausible that John's forgiveness is honest, but who ever knows...
 

Last edited by Whisky (September 2, 2014 8:48 am)

Whisky wrote:

To me that just says: still pissed off, don't think I'll shave for you yet. Be nice, let time pass, and then maybe you're allowed to kiss me again without stubble all in your face...
 

Or maybe Mary likes stubble? Thinks it's a tiny bit sexy?

Mary

SusiGo wrote:

Well, she did not like the moustace … 

BIG difference between the moustache and the stubble!

Moustache:

Stubble:

Mary

Whisky wrote:

Zatoichi wrote:

  Someone on tumblr also pointed out that John has a stubble on Christmas, and while he clearly found it necessary to shave before going to 221b to meet Sherlock in TEH (whom he had not forgiven yet at that point) he didn´t feel the need before getting back together with his wife after months of silence .  I don´t take that point too seriously, but still I find it an interesting observation and it speaks for the state of mind he´s in - not exactly "fresh start" and "clean slate".

To me that just says: still pissed off, don't think I'll shave for you yet. Be nice, let time pass, and then maybe you're allowed to kiss me again without stubble all in your face...
Could be a little bit of revenge or reminder.
But I agree, it's fun he *does* shave for Sherlock - and not for Mary. Very obvious who he cares more for...
 

Right?? Like you think he would be like looking his best in Christmas Day, knowing that he's going to take his wife back the next day. But nope, he looks pretty rough in the clean shaven department! Nice observation!

maryagrawatson wrote:

But why does it have to be something negative? Why can't it be that, hey, Mary likes him with a little stubble so that's just a little way of saying he's come back to her?

At this point, anything's possible...

This show has SUCH an attention to detail and is very consistent with how certain symbols (yeah I think we all agree John's mustache is a symbol worthy of merit 😏) are displayed and how those symbols are consistent and don't change in meaning throughout each episode. So if John's mustache was first shown to us as a symbol of his "inner turmoil" so to speak, I think that it's fair to say that any sort of facial hair is a decision that was made by the writers to include. It was intentional, I'm sure of it.

shycroft wrote:

This show has SUCH an attention to detail and is very consistent with how certain symbols (snip) So if John's mustache was first shown to us as a symbol of his "inner turmoil" so to speak, I think that it's fair to say that any sort of facial hair is a decision that was made by the writers to include. It was intentional, I'm sure of it.

Very compelling argument!!! Hmm, the scales continue to tip towards Mary being an antagonist.

Mary
 

Quite so.

shycroft wrote:

This show has SUCH an attention to detail and is very consistent with how certain symbols (snip) So if John's mustache was first shown to us as a symbol of his "inner turmoil" so to speak, I think that it's fair to say that any sort of facial hair is a decision that was made by the writers to include. It was intentional, I'm sure of it.
 

silverblaze wrote:

No, the moustache was a reference to the canon Watson, who has a moustache. 

With a show as carefully written and equipped as Sherlock, I think it could easily be both.

Last edited by Schmiezi (September 3, 2014 4:32 am)

Schmiezi wrote:

With a show as carefully written and equipped as Sherlock, I think it could easily be both.

Read that as "carefully equipped Sherlock" and hat a laughing fit. Enough drinks for tonight, apparently...
 

I came here for baby Watson and forgot that we're talking about facial hair.  I do think the moustache is a reference to other depictions of Watson, but I don't think it shows John conforming and embracing normality (or at least, it doesn't show that well) because men of John's age don't tend to wear moustaches.  Maybe that's partly why it ages him.  It's an older man's or a younger man's style.  Far from being unfashionable, I think they can actually be highly fashionable amongst young men.   Wearing a style that doesn't fit his age group, actually makes John look individual rather than conformist, I think.   (And also rather more military, as if he's wants to make that side of himself more public). 

Baby Watson: I was thinking about how Sherlock interacts with children.  He seems to go for a connection which involves treating them as mini versions of himself.   I'm thinking particularly of little Archie at the wedding, and the little boy whose actions he manages to trace in TRF.  He messes it up with the little girl, through no fault of his own, but with those two boys he gets it right.  I'm just trying to think what he would be like with a child, playing the "uncle".  I'm sure he'd be largely competent, and could have a good relationship with them particularly if there was that connection - I'm sure children would adore him.   On the other hand, showing Archie gory crime scenes was entirely inappropriate (in my opinion).  Would Sherlock be able to connect to a child who wasn't like himself?  Would he just ignore the child?  Or would he try to mould her (having the example of Mycroft moulding him)?

Series 1 and 2 melded together (one started where the other finished), but Series 2 and 3 had a closer to "real time" gap.  I wonder which way they're going to go for S4?  It seems that we have to come straight in at the end of S3 to see what's happening with Moriarty, and then we'll be leading up to the baby's birth.   But it's not necessary - we could jump in ages later and have some detail in flashback.    Even though I've been thinking about it, I don't think there's going to be a baby Watson in the story for series to come (because canon), but it's hard to know how it's going to be dealt with.  I'm curious about the Christmas special because the timing could be different on that one.   

Talking of children, didn't Stephen Thompson talk about wanting to do an episode about Sherlock as a child?   That would work as a Christmas special (in flashback) without having to worry about the timeline.

Last edited by Liberty (October 6, 2014 3:21 pm)