SusiGo wrote:

Just an aside - yesterday I was watching "Torchwood" and heard these words which I know from so many Sherlock fanfics. 
"It's not men, it's just him. It's only him."
Such things happen. 

Ha. When I watched that episode and came across that quote I immediately had to jot it down, as well. I think I even posted it here somewhere. It's so very telling.
 

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

A lovely light wrote:

He is right about jumping in that moment. But he isn't right to keep John in the dark for two years, also he is not right about the way he choose to do the reunion - he so should have give more thought about it, about how and where he would meet John and explain him .... 

I think Sherlock didn't tell John, because John was being watched. It would have put John's life in dnager. 

There are danger and danger out there. Sometimes the danger and demons in your head are the most dangerous ones. You cannot go anyway from them, you cannot hide . They are there to torture you every second.

Look, i understand very well what is going on with Sherlock and how hard is for him that moment, that is typical for his character to misjudge, but not to say that he was in right to treat John like he did. As a watcher i can think a lot of attenuating circumstances for Sherlock, and i do. But so do i with John. The reunion scene is not John's fault , his misunderstanding is called not from his failure as human being. 

Sherlock approached badly the reunion from the begining, so i cannot understand why the blame is on John for not coping with it. That is all. 

SolarSystem wrote:

A lovely light wrote:

The reunion scene is not John's fault , his misunderstanding is called not from his failure as human being.

In my opinion the outcome of the reunion is not anybody's fault, neither John's nor Sherlock's. They both are damaged goods, they both had to live through two years we don't know all that much about - but I guess it's safe to say that it's been difficult and painful for both of them. So the reunion... just sort of happened this way. They both were overstrained and unable to cope with it.
And although I certainly don't approve of violence, I am glad that we saw how difficult this was for them. I definitely prefer this over a sickly-sweet It's-good-to-have-you-back-scene.

 

Exactly. 

 

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

I'm having a lot of difficulty with the idea that someone being a know it all, someone being arrogant, that that's a good reason to want them taken down. I find that idea rather-- well, it's reflective of the Reality TV world we live in, where we pick sides based on how "nice" someone is, versus how "mean" or arrogant someone is, and wait for the mean person to Fall. We delight in it. And, really-- wasn't that what TRF was about? Sherlock rose in the eyes of the press, he caught the attention of Moriarty, but he wasn't humble enough, he wasn't nice enough. Therefore, he had to Fall. He lost everything. So the moral of the story is, be nice, be normal, be polite, be humble. Otherwise, you will be taken down. But if you're "nice", people will forgive you *anything*. 

 

That really strikes a chord with me, you describe exactly how I feel, not just about TRF but also about S3. Complete S3 feels like "a fall" for me, where people delight in taking Sherlock down, and it really bothers me. 

I could get really worked up about this and realize I´m being irrational about it, so I´d better stop now ;P. Still I had to quote it as I´m happy someone else is feeling this way..

Back to topic I think Solar found the perfect words for it..  being the men they are there was no way the reunion could have gone smooth. 

I think it was an interesting development to see Sherlock subjected to so much violence and contempt in series 3. For me it is part of the overall story arc. A hero who is experiencing highs and lows and has to hit rock bottom to build himself up again and become in some ways a new man. I am not happy with John going for quite that much violence in TEH but it fits in the pattern of this series which is told mainly from Sherlock's POV and in which we get a lot of insight into his inner life. I am sure that he will rise from all this, maybe in series 4, maybe even later and become someone who manages to cope with both sides of his being - the emotional and the cerebral one. 

SusiGo wrote:

I think it was an interesting development to see Sherlock subjected to so much violence and contempt in series 3. For me it is part of the overall story arc. A hero who is experiencing highs and lows and has to hit rock bottom to build himself up again and become in some ways a new man. I am not happy with John going for quite that much violence in TEH but it fits in the pattern of this series which is told mainly from Sherlock's POV and in which we get a lot of insight into his inner life. I am sure that he will rise from all this, maybe in series 4, maybe even later and become someone who manages to cope with both sides of his being - the emotional and the cerebral one. 

I love this... It would surely be the best outcome. Some things Mark said in an interview make me fear that "I hope you learnt your lesson" is supposed to mean that Sherlock learned that indeed being emotionally invested is something to avoid at all costs - but as I don´t think they´ll go back but develop their characters I have hopes that indeed S3 just was the "crisis" part of an epos that results in the hero maturing and developing his full potential. (I hope it doesn´t turn out to be a Greek tragedy.. )


 

You're probably right but let me just say: I have the feeling that the good-to-have-you-back-feeling is all but gone again in HLV. Which makes me going really mad. If you look at the whole series they were never really done with their seperation, we just get to take a little breath in TSoT.

Liberty wrote:

 And I accept that the show does do awful things to Sherlock and makes it attractive - humiliation comes up a lot in the show and they show him dirty and drugged,  or in pain and near collapsing, and still make him beautiful.  This is definitely a thing, and I suppose John's violence is actually a mild example of how far they will go to bring Sherlock down for our viewing pleasure.  

I´m still struggling with accepting this.. It´s just a personal thing, because I find very little pleasure in watching him shattered, humiliated and devastated. Struggling and shaken by his emotions like in S2 was just the right amount of drama for me, S3 left me feeling confused and emotionally drained (and as a result a little angry and less emotionally invested in the show). But I seem to be in the minority, many people got really hooked after S3 so it seems to be the right thing to do to make the show successful . 

@mrshouse: Sorry, I don´t remember which interview it was or how the exact words were, and a quick Google search didn´t bring any results either.. i hope I got it wrong anyway!

mrshouse wrote:

You're probably right but let me just say: I have the feeling that the good-to-have-you-back-feeling is all but gone again in HLV. Which makes me going really mad. If you look at the whole series they were never really done with their seperation, we just get to take a little breath in TSoT.

Oh, I absolutely agree with you - but that's a different story, isn't it? That feeling would also have been gone in HLV if the reunion had been done after the first ten minutes of TEH. 
And yes, it is sad. I would say that we really need to get back to that reunion aspect in S4, because after HLV it's still not how it should be between the boys. But again, in terms of storytelling that might not even be a bad thing... because there are things out there that need to be dealt with, and especially emotional things. So it's frustrating as well as exciting, if you ask me.
 

La Jolie wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Aha. Sherlock ASKS to be hit.

Yes, I think he does.

That's called victim blaming

Yes, and we surely all agree that it is terrible, twisted and wrong whenever something like that happens in real life domestic violence.


But going back to the fictional story that we're talking about, with characters whose personalities and emotions are arguably somewhat larger than life and intended to be taken with a grain of salt -


John can certainly do wrong. His anger and aggressive tendencies have me slightly worried, too. And of course he's wrong in hitting Sherlock. Legally it's a clear case of assault without any extenuating circumstances, if Sherlock ever considered pressing charges against him.

But I think the reason why some of us do find a funny and/or a sexy element in it (sexy on Sherlock's part, not on John's), you have to look at the reason *why* John feels a need for punishing Sherlock. It's not just for causing non-descript emotional pain for non-descript reasons. It would never have been funny and/or sexy if Sherlock's mistake had been unintentional or due to ignorance, fear, or any other sort of weakness. So for us people who didn't mind the scene, it's not generally OK to hit people (even in fiction) just because they've made any kind of mistake for any reason. You really have to look at why the victim makes the mistake.

If you look at the reason for Sherlock's mistake - and I define his mistake not as the fact of the Fall and the deception that went with it, but as his bad way of handling the reunion - , you will find arrogance, selfishness, idiocentrism and general disregard for John's feelings and needs, in short, everything you've ever loved to hate about Sherlock's personality and the way it shapes his relationship with John. That's what earns him his punishment. Not the mistake as such but the reason why he made it.

Now, what's the feeling you get when someone is being very annoyingly arrogant all the time? When someone keeps making you feel stupid, keeps not taking you seriously, disregards your feelings and tries to make himself feel better at your expense? You want to take him down a peg or two. You want to 
assert yourself, you want to be the one on top for once, you want that arrogant brat to feel what it's like to be someone else's punch-ball. So, when your verbal skills fail you, you hit him. Because that shuts him up and turns the tables very quickly and efficiently.


There's nothing interesting or satisfying (let alone attractive) in a weak person being humiliated. But it becomes very interesting and possibly attractive if the person at the receiving end isn't used to that sort of thing at all, when he's used to being on top of the world all the time with everyone deferring to him.

It's the extreme contrast of arrogance and humiliation that makes the scene enjoyable to me. Of pride coming before the fall, if you want to put it poetically.
...

I am surprised that nobody as far as I noticed reacted to your post. I find it excellent voice of reason.
But then, it should perhaps leave nothing to add.