BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / Sherlock and Mary

**Posted by besleybean** August 17, 2014 10:07 am

Oh yes, I think Moriarty's emphasis is quite clear...
For me what Sherlock reacts to is the fact that John is in danger...anymore I am unsure of.

**Posted by tonnaree** August 17, 2014 10:18 am

Yes, Sherlock clawed his way back from death for John Watson. We must never forget this.

**Posted by besleybean** August 17, 2014 10:24 am

How can we?
Everything he does is for John.
The very reason I ger sick of John belting Sherlock all of the time...
Though I now think John knows there is nothing Sherlock won't do for him.

Last edited by besleybean (August 17, 2014 10:24 am)

**Posted by besleybean** August 17, 2014 10:37 am

I personally think John owes Sherlock, but I won't split hairs!

**Posted by Schmiezi** August 17, 2014 10:39 am

Please let's not forget that John is not aware of all the things Sherlock does for him.

- He does not know that Sherlock jumped off the roof for John's safety (or else his "Who would he protect" line in HLV would not make sense)
- He does not know that Sherlock survived the gunshot for him (Yes, we have seen what happened at the mind palace, but not John)
- He does not know that it was only Sherlock who pulled John out of the bonfire (or else John's surprise at watching the scene at Appledore does not make sense)
- He does not see the way Sherlock repeatedly looks at him at Appledore for John never looks at him at the same time.

**Posted by besleybean** August 17, 2014 10:43 am

Yes, but it's after Appledore that John realised what Sherlock has risked for him.

**Posted by besleybean** August 17, 2014 11:45 am

Even continually thumping your best mate?

**Posted by Sherlockismyfix** August 17, 2014 12:10 pm

besleybean wrote:
Even continually thumping your best mate?

It is my recollection that this really happens in only two circumstances. The first time, in SIB, Sherlock asks him to.

And the second time, in TEH, he is feeling betrayed and overwhelmed by fury, understandably. The point has been made over and over in the shows that John is emotionl/romantic in his approach to life, but is pretty poor at verbalizing his feelings.

So I'm not sure it's fair to say he's continually thumping his friend.

**Posted by besleybean** August 17, 2014 4:45 pm

But not in anger!

**Posted by besleybean** August 17, 2014 4:55 pm

He wasn't intending to hurt John.
When John hits, he means it.

**Posted by besleybean** August 17, 2014 5:09 pm

Sorry guys, I know we are way off topic here...
But on that last point: it was the only way Sherlock knew how to engineer a sutuation to gain John's forgiveness...not that he needed it, in my book!

**Posted by SusiGo** August 17, 2014 5:12 pm

True. And what struck me when watching that part again - this happens immediately after John visits him in 221B. Sherlock asks him for forgiveness twice, the second time in a really heartfelt way, and John changes the subject. He does not accept the apology. The next thing we see is them heading off to the Underground carriage.

**Posted by besleybean** August 17, 2014 5:21 pm

(Oh stop it, Susi!) sob,...

**Posted by SusiGo** August 18, 2014 7:15 am

Well, Sherlock is not exactly the most patient of men as we all know. And he is at a loss where dealing with feelings is concerned. Both these facts combined might explain why he wants to hear John saying those words as soon as possible.

**Posted by Whisky** August 18, 2014 12:46 pm

After watching S3 again, I feel again like Mary is more a tragic figure than a scheming criminal.

But I was wondering about Johns other attempts at dating. His other women (the sound of that^^) were perfectly normal, teacher, "walk the dog", etc. - or so it would seem. If John - according to Sherlock - is attracted to a certain lifestyle, then that would mean: as long as John had Sherlock, he was fine with dating "ordinary" girls. Only when Sherlock drops out of his life, he goes searching for a not quite so normal girl. Did Sherlock ever realise that? Did he ever consider that, if his opinion about John is true, he (or rather, he not being there) is the very reason John ended up with Mary at all? That Mary filled the hole that Sherlock left behind in more than one way?

I mean, obviously John would have found a woman as soon as Sherlock was out of the way - he was trying hard enough even while Sherlock was still there to distract and sabotage his attempts.
But a woman like Mary?
Sherlock should have forseen that John would run off and try to find a substitute psychopath, or shouldn't he?

Hm, I lost my thought on the way... what was I trying to say? :D

Last edited by Whisky (August 18, 2014 12:47 pm)

**Posted by SusiGo** August 18, 2014 12:51 pm

Honestly, I never believed the theory of John searching for a woman that is similar to Sherlock. I really think he wanted start a new, completely different life. A woman similar to Sherlock would have reminded him every day of what he had lost and the Mary we see in TEH and most of the time in TSoT is quite from Sherlock. For me his shock in the Baker Street scene is genuine.

But of course this depends on whether you believe Sherlock's words in this scene or take them as an attempt to placate Mary and protect John.

**Posted by besleybean** August 18, 2014 3:44 pm

I believe Sherlock.
Having rewatched The Pilot, I forgoit how much they played on John being abnormally attracted to violence.

Last edited by besleybean (August 18, 2014 3:44 pm)

**Posted by SusiGo** August 18, 2014 3:50 pm

besleybean wrote:
I believe Sherlock.
Having rewatched The Pilot, I forgoit how much they played on John being abnormally attracted to violence.

This is true. But in those cases the danger and violence was obvious. They talked about battlefields and violent death, John was kidnapped by a mysterious man who might have been a villain, Sherlock mentioning a riding crop in their very first meeting, Mrs Hudson talking about her husband's execution.

You get none of this in his dealings with Mary.

**Posted by Liberty** August 18, 2014 4:01 pm

Yes, that's the odd thing. I do believe Sherlock, I think (believe that he believes what he's saying). The trouble is that Mary was keeping everything so hidden. She didn't lead him into danger or excitement at all - she led him into endless, boring planning for a wedding. Which wasn't in character for either of them.

Maybe that was it - some sort of unconscious bonding, because both were trying to pretend they were different people? Both were trying to convince themselves and others that they were drawn to the boring and mundane rather than danger and excitement?

Of course, Mary's personality isn't boring at all. She comes across as very perceptive, lively and intelligent (and interestingly, unfazed by violence, but we only see that at the beginning of TEH, when John is already at the stage of proposing). I suppose Sherlock is implying that John also sensed that there was more to her than that, something dark and dangerous, and was drawn to her because of that. I'm just no sure how he could have sensed it - what was she giving away?

**Posted by Liberty** August 18, 2014 9:36 pm

Yes, that's true, and maybe John should have picked up on something at that point. But all we see of Mary comes after John had decided to marry her. We don't get to see what drew him to her in the first place, and how he instinctively felt that she was that kind of person.

It also makes you wonder if it was something similar that drew Mary to John?

To answer the original question, it does seem as if Sherlock genuinely cares for Mary and vice versa, although I'm prepared to change my mind on that, depending on what happens in S4. He makes the vow to all three of them in TSOT and keeps it in HLV.