BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / Johnlock: The Official Debate

**Posted by besleybean** April 12, 2014 5:23 pm

Agape, the purest and most beautiful form of love.

**Posted by Harriet** April 12, 2014 5:44 pm

I think in this case you mix it up with philia, besley

**Posted by besleybean** April 12, 2014 5:47 pm

Long time since I did my New Testament Greek, so possibly...let me see!

Having reassessed, I think what John and Sherock share is both agape and philia.

Last edited by besleybean (April 12, 2014 5:49 pm)

**Posted by Mattlocked** April 12, 2014 5:58 pm

My dictionary gives up at this point.

**Posted by SolarSystem** April 12, 2014 6:02 pm

Agape is brotherly love, philia seems to be a kind of love where the aspect of friendship between the two lovers is more in the foreground. In both cases... no sexual relationship, it seems.

To me this is all far too academic. In this case I prefer to trust my emotions.

**Posted by besleybean** April 12, 2014 6:05 pm

Which I guess is what Johnlock is all about and also why I have issue with it...I try to be ruled by my head.

**Posted by SolarSystem** April 12, 2014 6:35 pm

Well, of course that's what Johnlock is about. Every kind of love is about emotions, in my opinion.

And talking about emotions and that you said this:
"I just sometimes wonder if I watch a different show...I see no Johnlock in S3!
The season when John gets married?"

Well, yes, John gets married, but I don't see a lot of emotions involved there. We don't even see him propose to Mary, instead he asks Sherlock to be his best man - well, that's more of a proposal than anything we got to see between him and Mary. John and Mary also don't feel very 'romantic' to me, for that matter. There's much more romance between John and Sherlock, if you ask me.

But even if we chose not to speak of romance but of bromance: Well, John and Mary - the best bromance ever. I don't see one bit more love or romance or whatever you wanna call it (or don't wanna call it, since we're not talking about emotions here) between them than I see between Sherlock and John.

**Posted by Mattlocked** April 12, 2014 6:39 pm

He, Solar, you're right!!

**Posted by besleybean** April 12, 2014 6:45 pm

Except we know they are married, having sex and expecting a baby.
Even if we think John is only staying with Mary BECAUSE of the baby...doesn't mean he's in love with Sherlock.
But he and Sherlock have the best bromance ever.

**Posted by SolarSystem** April 12, 2014 6:50 pm

Yes, well, lots of people get married and have children, doesn't always have to do with love.
John and Mary are married and Mary is pregnant and John very likely is the father. Still, all I see between them is the bromance that you see between John and Sherlock.

**Posted by besleybean** April 12, 2014 7:51 pm

Do you mean because there is something wrong with the marriage, or just that 2 friends decided to get married and have a child?

Last edited by besleybean (April 12, 2014 7:51 pm)

**Posted by Harriet** April 12, 2014 7:55 pm

What should be wrong with the marriage? There are many possible reasons to marry. Love is just one among them.

**Posted by besleybean** April 12, 2014 7:58 pm

Yes, which is kind of what I meant in the second part of my post.

**Posted by gently69** April 12, 2014 8:20 pm

Another theory ... the reason ... for the marriage ... could it also be some kind of gratefulness? Because Mary helped him to cope with the loss. Mistook it for love?
Not saying that John is in love with Sherlock. But loves him ?

The little difference, besley.

**Posted by Mattlocked** April 12, 2014 8:32 pm

Hm, there are lots of people who marry because..... well, one marries. *shrugs*
Could be you having a point there, Gently. John was alone again, grieving, met Mary, she helped him, she was "the best what could happen" to him at that time.... Result: Marry her. Go on with your life.
Something like that.

**Posted by SolarSystem** April 12, 2014 9:07 pm

Both of them, John and Mary, might have had more... reasonable reasons for marriage than love. Gratefulness might have been a reason for John. Mary on the other hand might have been a bit more calculating... let's not forget, she has a very complicated past, and marriage might have been a way for her to make at least a first step into a new and different future.
They certainly have feelings for one another... but I personally see far more feelings between John and Sherlock.

**Posted by besleybean** April 12, 2014 9:08 pm

But why not just live with her, or just go out with her, or just be friends?

Sorry Solar, we cross posted...
But then, why doesn't he marry Sherlock?

Last edited by besleybean (April 12, 2014 9:09 pm)

**Posted by tonnaree** April 12, 2014 9:12 pm

besleybean wrote:
Agape, the purest and most beautiful form of love.

There are many different types of love but I don't like to think of any one as superior to another.
And I don't think the value of a love should be judged by it's sexual content. A sexual componant to a loving relationship does not decrease OR increase it's worth. It's just one of the things that can be different.

And one more side note. I see a lot of talk about being ruled by either your mind or your emotions. As humans we are gifted with BOTH and I think both are equally important. I believe the ideal should be to strive for balance between the two.

**Posted by besleybean** April 12, 2014 9:14 pm

Sounds like a mission for Sherlock!

**Posted by SolarSystem** April 12, 2014 9:22 pm

besleybean wrote:
But then, why doesn't he marry Sherlock?

Well, why should he? Marriage doesn't 'prove' anything, so I don't see the need for them to marry - or for anyone, for that matter. There can be love between two people without marriage - and there can be marriage for all sorts of reasons, as Harriet already mentioned, and love is only one of those reasons. And like I already said, in my opinion John and Mary certainly had their reasons for marriage, but I just don't spot love.