BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

**Posted by besleybean** February 28, 2014 10:25 pm

@RML I think Mycroft agrees with you!

Last edited by besleybean (February 28, 2014 10:26 pm)

**Posted by Willow** February 28, 2014 10:33 pm

besleybean wrote:
And she didn't do what Sherlock did to CAM!

Quite so. Sherlock waited until he was surrounded by large numbers of armed witnesses before he killed CAM. And he fully accepted that, as Mycroft says, he is a murderer and was prepared to pay the price; his own life.

No resemblance at all to Mary...

**Posted by RavenMorganLeigh** February 28, 2014 10:34 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Swanpride wrote:
I can only speak for myself...but I am mostly not inclined to agree that Sherlock either deduced her wrong or is deliberately trying to conceal an attempted murder from John. I firmly believe that his deduction was right and Mary did give him a chance to survive. And yes, I am ready to defend Mary from everyone who claims otherwise, because all the evidence (mainly the fact that Sherlock is still alive, but also the spot she picked) speaks for Sherlock's version being the correct one. I'm also inclined to believe that she called the ambulance, because she was the only one who had reason and opportunity to do so before John did. And again, I'm ready to defend her from anyone who tries to rewrite the episode in order to make her look worse than she already does.

That doesn't mean though that I don't understand it if some people have problems to accept the idea that she shot Sherlock. It's just this tendency to make what she did even worse which bothers me. Because there is honestly no need. What she did was bad enough. I like her nevertheless, but I don't expect everyone to feel the same. Just .... why is it so hard to understand that while she risked Sherlock's life (which was the wrong move, no question), she did not try to kill him?
My problem is not accepting the idea that she shot Sherlock (which is the writer's choice and a simple fact) but that I should like her. I do not see her do anything remotely positive in this episode, at least not for John and Sherlock. Her main concern IMO is herself.

That's exactly it. Exactly.

The other thing-- I kind of have a problem with being asked to just up and put aside any common sense I've been graced with. But, even if I accepted Sherlock's ridiculous explanation, I still don't have to like or forgive Mary, either.

My feeling is that Sherlock has an agenda and lied to John about the "surgical" shot. The Mind Palace sequence where he's endeavoring not to die, and other things in the episode, (which we've discussed) to my mind, really bear that out.

**Posted by RavenMorganLeigh** February 28, 2014 10:36 pm

Willow wrote:
besleybean wrote:
And she didn't do what Sherlock did to CAM!
Quite so. Sherlock waited until he was surrounded by large numbers of armed witnesses before he killed CAM. And he fully accepted that, as Mycroft says, he is a murderer and was prepared to pay the price; his own life.

No resemblance at all to Mary...

And he recieved a death sentence-- commuted only by the apparent resurgence of the Moriarty Threat.

**Posted by Willow** March 1, 2014 3:02 am

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
Willow wrote:
besleybean wrote:
And she didn't do what Sherlock did to CAM!
Quite so. Sherlock waited until he was surrounded by large numbers of armed witnesses before he killed CAM. And he fully accepted that, as Mycroft says, he is a murderer and was prepared to pay the price; his own life.

No resemblance at all to Mary...

And he recieved a death sentence-- commuted only by the apparent resurgence of the Moriarty Threat.

And this is the difference between Mary and Sherlock; she uses violence to protect herself, Sherlock uses violence to protect others.

And he still goes on to protect them, even desperately wounded, whilst Mary runs away. I really do understand SusiGo's reaction to this, and I share it...

**Posted by besleybean** March 1, 2014 8:38 am

And possibly we have two years to revel in the misery of the situation...

**Posted by RavenMorganLeigh** March 1, 2014 8:54 am

besleybean wrote:
And possibly we have two years to revel in the misery of the situation...

Oh, Ye GODS!!!

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

They can't make us wait that long, can they? CAN THEY?????

Alas, alack a day.

**Posted by besleybean** March 1, 2014 9:03 am

My thoughts entirely...
I'm already at the point of having to resist the desire to bang my head against a wall...
May have to stay away from fan sites!

**Posted by Sherlock Holmes** March 1, 2014 11:49 am

Honestly, you guys should just accept Sherlock's explanation, because that's all you're going to get. Just like there won't be any further revisits to Reichenbach theories, there won't be any revisits to Sherlock getting shot. His explanation, whatever you think of it, is the best we're going to get.

**Posted by lil** March 1, 2014 12:37 pm

Sherlocks explanation wasn't for us it was for John.
We get to make our own mind up.
Likely they won't revisit it...unless we get a very bad Mary saying something like you were supposed to die...or I tried to kill you once....in series4.
HeH

**Posted by Willow** March 1, 2014 1:01 pm

lil wrote:
Sherlocks explanation wasn't for us it was for John.
We get to make our own mind up.
Likely they won't revisit it...unless we get a very bad Mary saying something like you were supposed to die...or I tried to kill you once....in series4.
HeH

Well, the writers have definitely got something up their sleeves for Mary, but until then I think we should follow Sherlock's exemplary command

"Do your research!"

**Posted by SolarSystem** March 1, 2014 4:06 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Swanpride wrote:
That doesn't mean though that I don't understand it if some people have problems to accept the idea that she shot Sherlock. It's just this tendency to make what she did even worse which bothers me. Because there is honestly no need. What she did was bad enough. I like her nevertheless, but I don't expect everyone to feel the same. Just .... why is it so hard to understand that while she risked Sherlock's life (which was the wrong move, no question), she did not try to kill him?
My problem is not accepting the idea that she shot Sherlock (which is the writer's choice and a simple fact) but that I should like her. I do not see her do anything remotely positive in this episode, at least not for John and Sherlock. Her main concern IMO is herself.

But what does that even mean, "she risked Sherlock's life"...? She did not just risk his life, she killed him. He died. He was dead. And I'm sorry that I'm repeating myself constantly in various threads, but sometimes I am under the impression that some of us have not seen the same episode. In the version of HLV that I saw, Sherlock died because Mary shot him. Pure an simple. And I still see no convincing evidence anywhere that she did not indeed try to kill him. Yes, she could have shot him in the head and he most certainly would have died. But she shot him somewhere else - and he still died.

**Posted by lil** March 1, 2014 4:21 pm

The point being made here by the writers isn't why she shot him..or how she shot him..or whether he died or not.
Sherlock as a representation of all innocents in modern warfare..as collateral damage..maybe it might of been Janine..or a security guard....well they all count..everyone is someones someone.

She shouldn't have shot in the first place.

Do you want to live in a world where government agents..or rogue individuals can shoot at innocent people / bystanders to keep secrets?

There is no..as long as they don't die answer..because as we saw..people tell.

Two people can keep a secret only if one them is dead.

Last edited by lil (March 1, 2014 4:25 pm)

**Posted by Willow** March 1, 2014 4:54 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
Swanpride wrote:
That doesn't mean though that I don't understand it if some people have problems to accept the idea that she shot Sherlock. It's just this tendency to make what she did even worse which bothers me. Because there is honestly no need. What she did was bad enough. I like her nevertheless, but I don't expect everyone to feel the same. Just .... why is it so hard to understand that while she risked Sherlock's life (which was the wrong move, no question), she did not try to kill him?
My problem is not accepting the idea that she shot Sherlock (which is the writer's choice and a simple fact) but that I should like her. I do not see her do anything remotely positive in this episode, at least not for John and Sherlock. Her main concern IMO is herself.
But what does that even mean, "she risked Sherlock's life"...? She did not just risk his life, she killed him. He died. He was dead. And I'm sorry that I'm repeating myself constantly in various threads, but sometimes I am under the impression that some of us have not seen the same episode. In the version of HLV that I saw, Sherlock died because Mary shot him. Pure an simple. And I still see no convincing evidence anywhere that she did not indeed try to kill him. Yes, she could have shot him in the head and he most certainly would have died. But she shot him somewhere else - and he still died.

Yes; I see no evidence at all to support the idea that she didn't try to kill him. She chose the method which would prevent John coming straight after her, having established his presence there by asking Sherlock; that is premeditation, and it is what would destroy any defence she tried to bring along the lines of 'I didn't really want to kill him so I shot him somewhere safe.' She wasn't panicking and she wasn't out of control; it was premeditated

**Posted by besleybean** March 1, 2014 5:10 pm

So are we putting Mary on trial?
How about putting Sherlock on trial, too.

**Posted by Ozymandias** March 1, 2014 5:12 pm

I think we can pretty much all agree that Mary's action was quite selfish during the season 3, whereas Sherlock sacrified his whole life - career for John and Mary's own happiness. So without being a Johnlock shipper, I think that the moral implication is not the same for both of them. Anyway, Sherlock was ready to accept the consequences of his murder.

However, I fully understand why people like Mary. She's an interesting character, she's neither plain nor boring. But I can't say she's a "good person."

Last edited by Ozymandias (March 1, 2014 5:18 pm)

**Posted by lil** March 1, 2014 5:19 pm

besleybean wrote:
So are we putting Mary on trial?
How about putting Sherlock on trial, too.

Back in S01E01...we were shown Sherlock and John would shoot bad people..and then laugh about it.

**Posted by besleybean** March 1, 2014 5:22 pm

Yeah, whatever happened to that?
I miss those days!

**Posted by Willow** March 1, 2014 5:31 pm

besleybean wrote:
So are we putting Mary on trial?
How about putting Sherlock on trial, too.

We are. It's on another thread

**Posted by Willow** March 1, 2014 5:38 pm

lil wrote:
besleybean wrote:
So are we putting Mary on trial?
How about putting Sherlock on trial, too.

Back in S01E01...we were shown Sherlock and John would shoot bad people..and then laugh about it.

Well, adrenaline does strange things. Following the unfortunate incident when I got blown up by an exploding oxygen regulator the technician and I were laughing our heads off. I was 36 weeks pregnant at the time, and couldn't feel my baby's movement, and the technician had burnt his hand down to the bone turning off the main valve on the cylinder.

So, adrenaline. Useful stuff but it does strange things to you...