BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

**Posted by mrshouse** February 24, 2014 2:57 pm

Oh yes
also really curious if it will come to light or being swept under the carpet. (memory stick).
this bit about open affection is gnawing now...😒

**Posted by Willow** February 24, 2014 3:44 pm

I have been trying to work out points during the season where we would find it plausible that she might have confided in John; I accept SusiGo's analysis of their opening lines. She knew John was working up his nerve to propose to her, and she wasn't helping him; on the other hand she wasn't actively discouraging him. We know from John's comments that he hadn't known her for long; this was a point where she could have opened it up by opening the cupboard and tentatively baring a skeleton or two.

However, one thought which I previously hadn't contemplated struck me rather forcibly; we don't know whether she intended to say Yes.

It is only after Sherlock's return that we get the stuff about her wanting to say Yes, should John remember that he hasn't actually asked her yet. I find that interesting, given the ambivalent way she responds when John is struggling in front of her...

**Posted by mrshouse** February 24, 2014 3:50 pm

But seriously! Someone proposing to you and you answer " yes, but I have to tell you my worst secrets first, otherwise I don't feel worthy" dunno...
rather at some point during wedding preperstions?

**Posted by SusiGo** February 24, 2014 3:52 pm

I do not think this would have been the right moment either. But TEH takes place in November and the wedding in May so there would have been quite some time to confess such things provided Mary had wanted to do so. Which she clearly did not.

**Posted by Willow** February 24, 2014 4:08 pm

SusiGo wrote:
I do not think this would have been the right moment either. But TEH takes place in November and the wedding in May so there would have been quite some time to confess such things provided Mary had wanted to do so. Which she clearly did not.

I take your point; I had been thinking that perhaps she might say something along the lines of it being too soon to be thinking of marriage, and then I realised that I was imagining 1920s dialogue to go with the hairstyle and the vintage style dress.

So, there would have been opportunities, but she did not want to take them...

**Posted by SusiGo** February 24, 2014 4:12 pm

To be honest, I think she did not expect to ever find herself in this situation. She hoped that her past was over and that she could start a new life with John without ever having to reveal anything about her former identity (of course everything might be totally different but this is what we can deduce from what we get). Things start going wrong the moment she realises that CAM knows about her past and then she is not willing/able/courageous enough to take this step.

**Posted by lil** February 24, 2014 4:37 pm

@Susie...that scenario only works if you believe she came into Johns life by coincidence.
Is it really coincidence that a person like Mary connected to Magnusson...connected to Moriarty of all of the gp clinics in all of the world..walked into Johns?
We know from Janine/telegram Magnussons contact with Mary has been going on for quite some time before the wedding.

@Swan .. love is not just a viscious motivator then..but an acceptable one?
How many people must pay for Mary to have Johns love with their lives?

Mary knows John was a soldier..Mary knows John doesn't turn away from dangerous and morally dubious people, she knows he loved Sherlock and their adventures.
So her thinking she would loose John doesn't make much sense.
When John discovers the truth..she tells him you like that...
why does she think /say that after John knows..but seemingly not consider it before?

@MrsH well lol...there's never going to be a moment to say..everything you know about me is a lie. So a difficult option, but shouldn't a difficult convo be an easier choice than endangering people you supposedly love..and murder.

Last edited by lil (February 24, 2014 4:43 pm)

**Posted by SusiGo** February 24, 2014 4:40 pm

As I said, lil, I wrote this based on what we know so far. Of course she might have targeted John/Sherlock/Mycroft from the beginning and might have been in cahoots with Moriarty and so on but I looked at the data we get in this series. I hope we will get more information in series 4.

**Posted by Willow** February 24, 2014 4:46 pm

SusiGo wrote:
To be honest, I think she did not expect to ever find herself in this situation. She hoped that her past was over and that she could start a new life with John without ever having to reveal anything about her former identity (of course everything might be totally different but this is what we can deduce from what we get). Things start going wrong the moment she realises that CAM knows about her past and then she is not willing/able/courageous enough to take this step.

Yes; on the other hand, I think we have to assume that she has a back up plan should she be discovered since otherwise she would not be in possession of a highly illegal weapon, nor practised enough with it to do trick shots like the one she demonstrated at Leinster Gardens.

For those unfamiliar with English gun laws I should explain that gun ownership is very tightly controlled. Someone like John could get a firearms permit since retired military frequently do belong to shooting clubs, but it's strictly straightforward handguns, rifles, and shotguns, of course, for game hunting. No silencers.

The chances of Mary getting a permit are non-existent, so she is committing a criminal offence even for owning the gun, and she must also be obtaining ammunition, which is also illegal.

**Posted by lil** February 24, 2014 4:46 pm

@ Susie. Yes I agree.
I think they will return to some of this...otherwise why have they left such interesting and obvious clues.
Heh they do like leaving us things to ponder.

**Posted by mrshouse** February 24, 2014 4:46 pm

Well, I must concede I haven't really thought through if she met John by chance. Are we certain she is connected to Moriarty? Except maybe for her question to John at the airport, but maybe I missed other clues. @susi you mentioned the situation got out of hand the moment she realized cam was still after her. But that was not clear before the end of tsot, was it? Still there have some other situations been discussed that took place in teh and during wedding preparations that gave an uneasy feeling.

**Posted by SusiGo** February 24, 2014 4:49 pm

No, we are not certain that there is any connection between her and Moriarty. It was just an example for the various speculations that exist.
I think she realised CAM was after her the moment Sherlock read the telegram.

**Posted by lil** February 24, 2014 5:05 pm

Yes obviously previous contact as she recognised the name, and had taken some time to cultivate the Janine relationship.
Unless of course she already knew Magnusson/Janine pre John.
Magnusson knew the childhood Redbeard secret..how ?
If not from Moriarty via Mycroft.

A lot of posts lately like yours seem to show Mary is manipulative and sort of acting a persona..i agree with much of this pov.
And reading your post made me wonder...does Mary think/know John doesn't actually love her but is just under the influence of her manipulations?

I don't buy the scared of loosing John reason for everything she does.

Last edited by lil (February 24, 2014 5:14 pm)

**Posted by Willow** February 24, 2014 5:40 pm

lil wrote:
@ Susie. Yes I agree.
I think they will return to some of this...otherwise why have they left such interesting and obvious clues.
Heh they do like leaving us things to ponder.

Indeed so; I've looked at our gun laws in a bit more detail, so brace yourself: it's a mandatory five year jail sentence for possession of a gun without a license.

So, CAM could have her jailed for five years without even having to use his previous information about her, though no doubt once the police started investigating the truth would out.

It's a very big risk for her to take; wandering around London with a loaded gun in her pocket...

**Posted by RavenMorganLeigh** February 24, 2014 5:48 pm

Swanpride wrote:
To clarify, I think there is a difference between something being wrong and something being understandable. Should Mary have talked to Sherlock and John? Hell yes! Is it understandable that she didn't? Again, yes.

She reminds me a little bit of Soo Lin, who apparently really liked her colleague but was convinced that he "wouldn't like her all that much" if he truly knew her. Soo Lin's solution was to shut him out. Mary decided to hide her past from John. And honestly, up the point when CAM entered the scene I can't even fault her. I am ready to bet that John didn't tell her about his "bad days" and shooting the cabbie either. There are some things one wants to keep in the past.
I even get why she tried to take care of CAM by herself. And why she made a desperate move when she discovered her pregnancy. The thing with lies is that the longer she kept quiet about her past, the more difficult it became to tell John the truth.

It's easy to say that I would have acted differently. After all, I wasn't in her situation. I didn't have her skill set. And I didn't have to make the decision how to deal with Sherlock appearance in a split second.

Actually, SooLin-- I think she had more integrity. She didn't get involved with her colleaugue, and that probably saved his life.

Mary, on the other hand, dated John, knowing full well that her past could come back to bite her-- indeed, could get them both killed. And then she married him, never disclosing her past. In HLV, we find out that CAM knows people who want Mary dead or imprisoned. By showing that, the writers have effectively planted the idea that next season, Mary's past may well put hers, the baby's, John's, and Sherlock's lives in grave danger.

That's a little bit worse than marrying someone and not disclosing your 10 bankruptsies, before all your accounts are merged with your spouse's. :-)

**Posted by Willow** February 24, 2014 6:31 pm

Swanpride wrote:
I honestly don't get why so many fans have the notion that Mary's past will have any bearing on season 4. The writers literally burned her past on screen. Sherlock claimed that Mary would be safe now. If anything happens to her, John or the baby now, it would made Sherlock's sacrifice worthless, and I doubt that the writers want that. For me, the writers basically set up a giant flare to make clear that Mary's past is now and forever the past. The point with CAM threatening to tell the truth to people who would kill Mary has for me mostly the function to make Sherlock's actions easier to understand. I don't see any foreshadowing in it.

Ok; trying to stick with the facts:

Mary's past involves people who are still alive and still have reason to want her dead, the people who provided the information to CAM are still alive and can provide the information to anyone else who's interested. Those people cannot be hand waved out of existence, however much you may wish that to be the case.

Sherlock did not claim that Mary would be safe now; he told John to tell Mary that's she's safe now. There are many possible interpretations of that line but it certainly cannot be advanced as representing an omnipotent decree from on high which will miraculously dispose of the people who want Mary dead.

Your entire argument is predicated on the assumption that Sherlock was sacrificing himself for John and Mary; I see no justification for that in the text and the actor who played the part saw no justification for that in the text.

**Posted by lil** February 24, 2014 7:28 pm

@Swan...thats exactly what I don't understand..why did she make so many stupid choices? Putting your whole future life and the life of everyone about you into the hands of a vile dangerous blackmailer like Magnusson.
That is a stupid choice for a supposedly smart person , especially when balanced with the fact that ....she thinks she is the best thing thats ever happened to John..she thinks John likes dangerous psychopathic type people..she thinks John loves her, so tell him seems safer option?

Maybe things did escalate , but doesn't a blackmailers price always rise?
Stupid to keep raising the payments, no sensible person in this age falls for blackmail unless the blackmailer has something very very very bad.
It may be Mary believed Magnusson would have had her killed via - the bad people that hate her -but surely that is even more reason to tell the truth thus eveyone is on guard..or to revert to her previous MO and vanish, maybe taking John.

We don't know for sure when Magnusson first contacted Mary..but it was some time before the wedding..so we must assume Mary is prepared to risk everything including her own life and hand her whole future over to the vile Magnusson for John, a man she had known for less than 6 months?
Not logical...not sensible...not fitting with Marys character..not understandable.

**Posted by SolarSystem** February 24, 2014 7:38 pm

Zatoichi wrote:
Itemised charge sheet? Sounds like fun to me.. No, but I honestly think they can and will shed some light on her motives and will present surprising new evidences or witnesses for her past. Because apart from shooting Sherlock everything that suggests that she is a really wicked and evil person comes from Magnussen at that point of the story, and I am inclined to mistrust his word.

Oh, but that's not entirely true. Mary herself says to John that he won't love her anymore once he's read what is on that stick. That might not mean that she would describe herself as being really wicked and evil, but it seems to be bad enough for John to stop loving her (at least that's what she seems to think).
She actually does not say anything specific about her past herself, Sherlock is the one who talks about her past the most. It seems she doesn't dare to talk about it... but why? Certainly not because what she did was next to nothing.

**Posted by QuiteExtraordinary** February 24, 2014 8:03 pm

Thanks for posting your thoughts, Susi, and trying to draw conclusions from the things we can see in the show instead of wild speculation about possible future or past events. I wish there was more of that actually.

One more point about that dialogue in the restaurant:
JOHN: Yes, I will. As you know, these last couple of years haven’t been easy for me; and meeting you ...
JOHN: Yeah, meeting you has been the best thing that could have possibly happened.
MARY: I agree.
JOHN: What?
MARY: I agree I’m the best thing that could have happened to you.

To me, on second thought, it sounds as if she actually meant "I agree, meeting you is the best thing that could have happened to me, too." But then she corrected herself and made a joke out of it, so John didn't start asking questions. Because otherwise it would have indicated that she went through similarly bad things in the past as he did, and that he was the one who gave hope to her, just like it was the other way around. And then John might have started to wonder what it could have been that happened to her.

**Posted by besleybean** February 24, 2014 8:04 pm

Good point.