BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

**Posted by mrshouse** February 24, 2014 8:21 am

I feel the fandom is splitted here.
The ones that feel the character is greatly written and multilayered and there still is a hell to discover. I am more along the lines that she was just too much of everything and had to fill every need that just had to be served. I don't want her planted into my head. This is not about Johnlock, though I really love the boys that way and think society would be ready for that, in a really decent way though...
This is about overrunning the two leads with perfectness, and that is a killer for me. Introduce decent background characters, fine. But never change a winning team.
Marylock? Maryjohnlock?? Maryjohnbabylock??? No, just no.

**Posted by SusiGo** February 24, 2014 8:23 am

Tinks wrote:
So my take on it all at the moment is that the writers gave us someone who was a brilliant, loveable,
Intelligent character for two episodes, and then midway through the last episode they turned her into an unlikeable charicature.
I think they did a disservice to both the character and the Actress in the way they went about it.

Coming back to my thoughts posted in this thread - this is exactly what IMO they did not. To me she is not completely lovable in episode 1 and 2. This is the reason that made me go through these episodes and look at what she really does and says. There are small hints throughout the episodes that there may be something more to her than what we see.

**Posted by Be** February 24, 2014 8:30 am

mrshouse wrote:
Maryjohnbabylock??? No, just no.

Nicely said. I fully agree with that.
I think we don't have to fear Maryjohnbabylock because it won't happen. Mary alone is problematic but when you add the baby it won't work imo.
I suppose that we get a nice plot twist and Mary and the baby are out of the picture. Gone to heaven or beekeeping in Sussex or whatnot.

**Posted by mrshouse** February 24, 2014 8:34 am

OOOHHHH yes, Be!!!
And a last scene something along the lines of the boys talking about never parting again, because it just is no good, some cow eyes at each other and a close up of their entangled hands.......
Sorry, got a bit carried away...this is not the thread...

**Posted by SusiGo** February 24, 2014 8:39 am

Swanpride

Of course she is flawed. They do no one-dimensional characters which is one of the attractions of the show.
But as I said before, I tried to look at what is there. And I miss her saying only once that she cares for John. That she does not want him to suffer. But we only hear that she does not want him to know about her past because he then would not love her anymore. For me this is an expression of selfishness. We are told again and again that she loves him but we never ever hear it coming from her own mouth. Honestly, even Sherlock manages to say he loves John in front of a whole wedding party, something we never expected him to do.
Of course not everybody is prone to express their feelings verbally but then we have Mary's actions as well. I do not want to repeat what has been said in so many threads but shooting Sherlock, then threatening him again when he has just come back from being clinically dead and then again being willing to kill him at Leinster Gardens - sorry, but this is not an expression of love to me.

Last edited by SusiGo (February 24, 2014 8:40 am)

**Posted by Be** February 24, 2014 8:40 am

I don't agree that Mary feels guilty about what she did in the past. She said that people like Magnussen should be killed and that why people like her exist. She justifies the assassinations. It implys that she would do it again and that she might continue to do so in case it would be necessary.

**Posted by SusiGo** February 24, 2014 8:44 am

Agreed. And this is exactly why I tried in this thread to stick to the facts and not to speculate about things we may or may not see in the future.

**Posted by mrshouse** February 24, 2014 8:44 am

Quite true, swanpride. We don't know.
But the question is: is it still possible to go ANYWHERE with her? In my opinion no. The situation is a bit in a corner right now.

**Posted by Be** February 24, 2014 8:49 am

We don't know it, but there is still that something she ran away from; the information John should not read in front of Mary. We got a lot of loose ends and a lot of hints under the surface. IMO Sherlock had a reason why he helped Mary the way he did. It can be something that is connected to the other something above.

**Posted by Be** February 24, 2014 8:54 am

Swanpride wrote:
@Be And Sherlock apparently agrees with her. I don't think that Mary feels guilty about killing when it happens for the right reasons (neither does John or Sherlock), but that she killed someone, deliberately or accidentally, for the wrong reasons. And this is what she feels guilty about.

Where do you see guilt?

**Posted by Zatoichi** February 24, 2014 8:55 am

SusiGo wrote:
There are small hints throughout the episodes that there may be something more to her than what we see.

This is true for "nice Mary" in TEH and TSoT as well as for "evil Mary" after HLV.. I think it is safe to say that even after Sherlock (and you ) revealed the hints for her not being nice and innocent all along there are also small hints that there might be more to her than being a cold-blooded obsessive murderer/psychopath as Magnussen depicts her and as her shooting and threatening Sherlock suggests.

I said it before and I´ll say it again, that does not make me trust Mary, forgive her for shooting Sherlock or find her actions in any way justified, I am just open for backstories and additional information that make her and her motives more understandable. I find it hard to stay neutral here, too.. SHE SHOT SHERLOCK AFTER ALL! But people do horrible things all the time, the courts are full of them.. no sentence without all evidences and motives cleared.

Oh, and I believe in Moftiss..

Last edited by Zatoichi (February 24, 2014 8:56 am)

**Posted by Sherlock Holmes** February 24, 2014 9:32 am

Can I just go on the record here as saying....I LIKE MARY.

**Posted by Willow** February 24, 2014 9:35 am

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
Can I just go on the record here as saying....I LIKE MARY.

Which one?

**Posted by mrshouse** February 24, 2014 9:36 am

Willow wrote:
Sherlock Holmes wrote:
Can I just go on the record here as saying....I LIKE MARY.
Which one?

**Posted by Sherlock Holmes** February 24, 2014 9:40 am

mrshouse wrote:
Willow wrote:
Sherlock Holmes wrote:
Can I just go on the record here as saying....I LIKE MARY.
Which one?

HAHA

Well...I like Mary as a character.

In terms of as a person, she gives me seriously mixed messages all the time and I'm always changing my mind over her. Sometimes I think she's brilliant and other times she kind of scares the hell out of me.

Either way, she's a really fascinating character and I definitely want to see more of her and learn more about her history in Series 4. (And also see an epically tragic and bloody death).

**Posted by mrshouse** February 24, 2014 9:45 am

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
mrshouse wrote:
Willow wrote:

Which one?

HAHA

Well...I like Mary as a character.

In terms of as a person, she gives me seriously mixed messages all the time and I'm always changing my mind over her. Sometimes I think she's brilliant and other times she kind of scares the hell out of me.

Either way, she's a really fascinating character and I definitely want to see more of her and learn more about her history in Series 4. (And also see an epically tragic and bloody death).

Still more of her????? I hope if she stays she will step back a bit!

**Posted by Willow** February 24, 2014 9:50 am

Zatoichi wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
There are small hints throughout the episodes that there may be something more to her than what we see.
This is true for "nice Mary" in TEH and TSoT as well as for "evil Mary" after HLV.. I think it is safe to say that even after Sherlock (and you ) revealed the hints for her not being nice and innocent all along there are also small hints that there might be more to her than being a cold-blooded obsessive murderer/psychopath as Magnussen depicts her and as her shooting and threatening Sherlock suggests.

I said it before and I´ll say it again, that does not make me trust Mary, forgive her for shooting Sherlock or find her actions in any way justified, I am just open for backstories and additional information that make her and her motives more understandable. I find it hard to stay neutral here, too.. SHE SHOT SHERLOCK AFTER ALL! But people do horrible things all the time, the courts are full of them.. no sentence without all evidences and motives cleared.

Oh, and I believe in Moftiss..

Well, the courts are indeed full of horrible people doing horrible things but they are not characters in Sherlock; Moftiss are unlikely to provide us with an itemised charge sheet on Mary since it would not be fun.

I find SusiGo's analysis compelling but I am also aware that characters do not live in a vacuum; there has to be something for them to do in the future and I can't see what Mary could do in the future. Moftiss have made it clear that where will be no lethal killer nurse following them around shooting people she may think pose a risk, so what is left for her? Have a baby, live happily ever after in suburbia, J&M forever, really doesn't sound very Moftiss to me...

**Posted by Willow** February 24, 2014 10:13 am

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
mrshouse wrote:
Willow wrote:
Which one?

HAHA

Well...I like Mary as a character.

In terms of as a person, she gives me seriously mixed messages all the time and I'm always changing my mind over her. Sometimes I think she's brilliant and other times she kind of scares the hell out of me.

Either way, she's a really fascinating character and I definitely want to see more of her and learn more about her history in Series 4. (And also see an epically tragic and bloody death).

I think they amused themselves quite a lot with the character, but I also think that when an epically tragic and bloody death occurs it's exceedingly difficult to write it in such a way as to leave the people left standing looking good in the limelight. I don't think it's beyond Moftiss skills but it would suck a great deal of emotion away from our heroes, and I can't see them doing that.

The whole structure where Mary was Mary Sued on the surface but not once you read the dialogue more carefully, and major kudos to SusiGo for that, suggests that they are not going to give her a Mary Sue death; sacrificing herself for the guys is such an appalling cliche that I can't see Moftiss doing it.

So, two strikes against your preferred mode of death, though I'm still hoping for Sherlock's plane to crash land on her with sadly fatal results whilst John redeems himself by rescuing Sherlock from the blazing wreckage, I agree that there's more back story to emerge. This is Moftiss and they are having fun

**Posted by Tinks** February 24, 2014 10:27 am

Zatoichi wrote:
Tinks wrote:
I think they did a disservice to both the character and the Actress in the way they went about it.
It´s a little OT, but I really felt a bit bad for Amanda when I watched some interviews.. it seems she really gets a lot of hatred and is not happy about how things turned out. I don´t know if we can blame the writers though, I wish people would be able to distinguish fiction from reality..

I agree.
I'd never attach the characteristics of a fictional character to the Actor who played the part, and John was always going to be married at some point, so for people to take a personal dislike against Amanda is just crazy.
I've wondered on a couple of occasions, If even BC is aware of the flak she's got, since he's gone out of his way to praise her and to emphasize that the Johnlock stuff, in terms of real romantic love, would never happen.
But that's just my speculation, and completely OT.

Susigo - I think that's a really interesting take on Mary, but I honestly didn't see anything sinister about her in the first two episodes - other than wondering how she knew about the trip codes!

**Posted by mrshouse** February 24, 2014 10:36 am

Yes, thats what I wondered about, too. The johnlock stuff going a bit too mad in the internet, the fans going like " They better kiss at some point, or..." Bit creepy. Perhaps that is why the character of mary overrun us in , well, just every facade that could be cramped into developing a character in three episodes. And maybe that was one reason in casting Martins real life partner, though this never thrilled me. ( They have a chemistry, oh, wow!)
I think BC defending amanda is quite sweet and he is good friends with martin, too, i think.