Posted by SherlocklivesinOH February 20, 2014 1:34 am | #1 |
I would have liked to see John show some happiness or awe at getting the very miracle he had wished for...which is what we mostly get in canon and other adaptations. I know it has been said that that's not very realistic, but really, how realistic is this series anyway?
And although we can understand John being angry, really, he's put up with other things from Sherlock that are almost as bad.
Or let him be hurt in a way that shows what Sherlock means to him:
I could hear something like, "You said you only had one friend. I didn't know you meant Molly, I thought you meant me."
Or an exchange where Sherlock explains why he didn't tell John, John says something about how he'd be tortured to death before he'd give Sherlock away, and Sherlock says, "but I wouldn't put you in that position."
Actually, I think, John's feelings should have gone in the other direction, so to speak: the FIRST reaction should have been a sort of giddy, "It's a miracle," and then he could have GOTTEN angrier later, as he learned more about what had been going on, and how many lies Sherlock told him, as well as the fact that Sherlock trusted so many other people and not him.
And I think the HEIGHT of John's anger should have come after the train stunt. It could have been sort of an accumulation: "He lies to me about being dead, and now he lies to me about us both being about to die."
Especially if they wanted to make it look like there were some problems between the boys throughout Season 3, at least partly as a result of Sherlock's deception - which as of HLV they are implying - but in TSoT they let us believe everything was fine.
Posted by saturnR February 20, 2014 6:12 am | #2 |
The lie in the train is more forgivable b/c Sherlock does stuff like that all the time. The original lie from Fall is less forgivable & is a once in a lifetime lie. If he tried to do it again John would punch before the death; not after
Posted by This Is The Phantom Lady February 20, 2014 8:31 am | #3 |
I think it's just how their relationship is; John got used to Sherlock's way of showing how he feels about soemone... he does that by pretending to blow them up on a train in order to say he is 'sorry'. I suppose.
At the first meeting I think John doesn't even know what to do and anger just takes over; 2 years is over the top and it nearly ruined John's life... I would be so, so mad if someone did that to me I might not even welcome them back; personally. I think that's sort of how John feels. He feels betrayed,
Posted by SolarSystem February 20, 2014 9:56 am | #4 |
This Is The Phantom Lady wrote:
At the first meeting I think John doesn't even know what to do and anger just takes over; 2 years is over the top and it nearly ruined John's life... I would be so, so mad if someone did that to me I might not even welcome them back; personally. I think that's sort of how John feels. He feels betrayed,
And also, John is not angry right from the very start. When he first recognizes Sherlock, he almost can't breath, he is shocked - but not angry. Not yet. He's getting angry when Sherlock tries to be funny, but before that John is speechless and helpless and you can see the pain Sherlock caused him all over his face.
Posted by Willow February 20, 2014 1:08 pm | #5 |
I'm not sure that the writers did intend to convey the fact that TSoT showed everything was fine; we know that John has been out of the army for some years now, yet Sholto briefly enquires about life as a civilian, and then bluntly asks John if he's still seeing the psychiatrist. This is what used to be called a clue by four, the metaphorical equivalent to someone hitting you with a two by four, and it very firmly reminds us that John is not out of the woods yet.
But then I'm not thrilled by the reunion either; I too think that John could have shown some delight and then punched him.
Posted by SolarSystem February 20, 2014 2:01 pm | #6 |
I don't know, but I imagine it to be pretty difficult to 'show some delight' when all of a sudden someone is standing in front of you who you thought to be dead for two years. Shock blanket is in order, imo.
Posted by tonnaree February 20, 2014 2:12 pm | #7 |
I think John's response was true to his character,.
Posted by SusiGo February 20, 2014 2:36 pm | #8 |
I agree with you. What Sherlock has done to John - whatever the reason - was outrageous. I would have been very surprised if John had shown any joy in this moment. Grieving for someone for two years is hard. And many people whose friends and family have committed suicide feel guilty. You do not overcome such an experience in just a few minutes.
Remember how he pours himself a drink in the mini episode to steel himself before watching the birthday message? And this is clearly some time after Sherlock's death.
As I said in another thread, for me the real reunion is the beautiful moment on the staircase in Baker Street and Sherlock's "I heard you".
Posted by SolarSystem February 20, 2014 2:55 pm | #9 |
SusiGo wrote:
As I said in another thread, for me the real reunion is the beautiful moment on the staircase in Baker Street and Sherlock's "I heard you".
I think the beauty of this reunion is that it lasts throughout the whole episode. I also love the scene when John finally comes to see Sherlock in 221B and they talk about Sherlock's parents and that they also knew Sherlock was alive. And then Sherlock apologizes to John, says "sorry" three times - and the third time he says it he finally really means it.
Posted by SusiGo February 20, 2014 3:08 pm | #10 |
Yes, that is a very good one, too.
I love how they show that such a process takes time, and they said that they wanted to make it different from Canon. Sherlock appears, John faints, everything is fine. This clearly does work in our Sherlock universe.
Posted by Willow February 20, 2014 3:11 pm | #11 |
SolarSystem wrote:
I don't know, but I imagine it to be pretty difficult to 'show some delight' when all of a sudden someone is standing in front of you who you thought to be dead for two years. Shock blanket is in order, imo.
True, but on the other hand Lestrade managed it and at the end of the day Sherlock had, after all, saved John's life, along with those of Lestrade and Mrs Hudson. I think it's reasonable to regard those lives as worth saving, and if John doesn't see it that way then I suppose that the writers want us to see a John who can't see it that way...
Posted by SolarSystem February 20, 2014 3:24 pm | #12 |
I think we've discussed this in another thread already, but I still think that you can't compare Sherlock's relationship to John with his relationship to Lestrade. There is a difference, and after all John was the one who saw Sherlock jump. I can't imagine what it must have felt like for him to be a witness to this. And to be honest, to me it would have been a bit disappointing if Sherlock's reunion with John would have looked and felt pretty much the same as his reunion with Lestrade.
I don't think that John can't see that his life and the lives of Hudders and Lestrade were worth saving - he never says aynthing in this regard. What he has difficulties with is accepting that Sherlock didn't tell him that he was alive and John had to mourn his friend for two years. And I guess one can either understand why he feels this way, or not.
Posted by Willow February 20, 2014 5:07 pm | #13 |
SolarSystem wrote:
I think we've discussed this in another thread already, but I still think that you can't compare Sherlock's relationship to John with his relationship to Lestrade. There is a difference, and after all John was the one who saw Sherlock jump. I can't imagine what it must have felt like for him to be a witness to this. And to be honest, to me it would have been a bit disappointing if Sherlock's reunion with John would have looked and felt pretty much the same as his reunion with Lestrade.
I don't think that John can't see that his life and the lives of Hudders and Lestrade were worth saving - he never says aynthing in this regard. What he has difficulties with is accepting that Sherlock didn't tell him that he was alive and John had to mourn his friend for two years. And I guess one can either understand why he feels this way, or not.
Part of the problem with this interpretation is the way they wrote the episodes. In the short we have Lestrade acknowledging his own guilt and reaching out to the others to try and help them; he's come to terms with the fact that he was wrong and he's trying to do better.
The writers chose to contrast this with John knocking back the scotch in suburbia, and we then discover that he's been shunning Mrs Hudson; they followed that up by demonstrating the reasons why John was excluded from the Plan in the first place. They did it very well; it's blindingly obvious that John couldn't keep a secret longer than five minutes if someone was pushing his buttons, and he has a lot of buttons to push. You don't need to torture someone like John; he'll tell you anything you want to know provided you use a little finesse.
We never see John acknowledging that fact, and then, to make matters worse, he complains bitterly about Sherlock not trusting him, but it never seems to occur to him that it cuts both ways. If he trusted Sherlock he would, at least, have given him the opportunity to explain; the fact that the writers chose not to write it that way says a lot about the John Watson they are creating. This John doesn't trust Sherlock, but does trust his wife, and therein lies the irony.
It's hardly surprising that some viewers prefer Lestrade's reaction to learning that Sherlock lives; for me, the real question is how the writers propose to get John to grow up, because they have done all of this deliberately. In the meantime, however, I cheer myself up by reading canon, in which Dr Watson might not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but does trust Sherlock, and would do so even if he asked him to walk off a cliff...
Posted by SherlocklivesinOH February 23, 2014 10:52 pm | #14 |
Now that I think about it, doesn't it seem like, even though Sherlock is back at the very beginning of Season 3, John is still in some kind of "grieving" process?
And saying "the game is over" at the very end of HLV is almost like the "acceptance" part? (Although, I was at a presentation about grief not long ago, and the speaker said there's not necessarily such a thing as "acceptance" or or end-point.
Someone said John didn't show enough emotion as the plane was about to take off. I thought "The game is over," said a lot. Because a lot of John's life would be over. But maybe, now that he's got a wife, he's growing up and viewing his life with Sherlock more like a game?
During "Many Happy Returns" John says "stop being dead," and I felt like he didn't truly accept that Sherlock really was.
But even after John expresses forgiveness, he still moves on with the life he started to create without Sherlock (i.e., follows through with getting married). And by the last scene of HLV, it's as if somehow, , John is used to the idea of losing Sherlock, or, like he always thought Sherlock's being back was too good to be true?
Posted by Sherlock Holmes February 24, 2014 9:21 am | #15 |
I think John's reaction is pretty spot on, tbh. I initially thought the three times he attacks him were a little over the top and essentially played only for comedy. They could have just done with him attacking him once.
Posted by Fillyjonk February 24, 2014 10:31 am | #16 |
Don't forget that Lestrade had a whole lot of time with Anderson feeding him crazy "Sherlock lives" theories, which I am sure John was spared. So for Lestrade the seeds were planted, and he was open to the slight possibility that Sherlock faked his death for a reason.
I think real life emotions aren't one-or-the-other. John was relieved, shocked, overjoyed, confused, angry, furious - all at the same time. Hell of a pile of emotions and logic to work out, there. I dare say it would take me a while to sort it all out.
Fillyjonk
Posted by Willow February 24, 2014 11:28 am | #17 |
Fillyjonk wrote:
Don't forget that Lestrade had a whole lot of time with Anderson feeding him crazy "Sherlock lives" theories, which I am sure John was spared. So for Lestrade the seeds were planted, and he was open to the slight possibility that Sherlock faked his death for a reason.
I think real life emotions aren't one-or-the-other. John was relieved, shocked, overjoyed, confused, angry, furious - all at the same time. Hell of a pile of emotions and logic to work out, there. I dare say it would take me a while to sort it all out.
Fillyjonk
Well, the only reason Lestrade was spending time with Anderson was because Lestrade is a nice guy, and I see nothing in his acting to suggests that he thought Sherlock was alive.
And yes, I completely agree that emotions, like messages, can be mixed.
Posted by RavenMorganLeigh February 24, 2014 6:27 pm | #18 |
Willow wrote:
SolarSystem wrote:
I don't know, but I imagine it to be pretty difficult to 'show some delight' when all of a sudden someone is standing in front of you who you thought to be dead for two years. Shock blanket is in order, imo.
True, but on the other hand Lestrade managed it and at the end of the day Sherlock had, after all, saved John's life, along with those of Lestrade and Mrs Hudson. I think it's reasonable to regard those lives as worth saving, and if John doesn't see it that way then I suppose that the writers want us to see a John who can't see it that way...
Actually you hit on a point that I think gets ignored; it wasn't just John affected, here. Mrs. Hudson welcomed Sherlock back to 221b, after she finished screaming, of course. :-) And there's open-hearted Lestrade's hug. Mycroft hangin' with Sherlock to play "operation."
I think John's reaction is so over-the-top, partly because everything in his world has narrowed to his own viewpoint; he's slighted and embarrassed that other people were in on Sherlock's plan, he takes the Fall as a personal betrayal and an intentional wounding. And he reacts with uncontrolled violence. But the truth is, he would have been the worst person to tell, and the worst person to take along on Sherlock's mission. He would have gotten them both killed. He may be a wonderful, noble kind of guy-- but impulse control? NOT. Ability to mask one's feelings, when your life may depend on it. Nah. Not really. And, maybe that's just part of his character, and that amy be why Sherlock tried to difuse the situation with humor---very ill-advised approach, I'll grant you, but there it is.
Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (February 24, 2014 6:28 pm)
Posted by SherlocklivesinOH February 24, 2014 10:33 pm | #19 |
he's slighted and embarrassed that other people were in on Sherlock's plan, he takes the Fall as a personal betrayal and an intentional wounding.
I think this part is a big issue for John...and it bothers me, because, here is this guy who says he has to be alone to be safe, and yet he really put his life in the hands of many people, none of whom he was supposed to be as close to as to John. But again, I would have expected to see almost a stronger burst of anger after that trick was explained (when he saw how many people were in on it) than when he first saw Sherlock.
Watson and Mary are married a few years before Holmes fakes his death in canon. Johnlockers think that Holmes is motivated to run away partly-to-entirely by his heartbreak at seeing his Watson happy with a woman. And then the reason Watson was able to forgive so easily is, he understands that Holmes viewed his (Watson's) marriage, as "Watson is leaving me."