BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

**Posted by SusiGo** February 23, 2014 7:55 pm

After watching HLV where Mary seems to change quite abruptly I had a closer look again at episodes 1 and 2. How is she presented there? She seems clever, sassy, funny and offers to reconcile John and Sherlock. But I think we get some hints that she may be not such a nice and loving person. I tried to examine her character from the very beginning based solely on what we see her do and hear her say. I will post this in several parts because it is quite long.

Let‘s start with TEH. (Note: all quotes are from ArianeDeVere‘s transcripts on livejournal.)

Scene 1: The Landmark restaurant

John is struggling with his proposal.

JOHN: Yes, I will. As you know, these last couple of years haven’t been easy for me; and meeting you ...
JOHN: Yeah, meeting you has been the best thing that could have possibly happened.
MARY: I agree.
JOHN: What?
MARY: I agree I’m the best thing that could have happened to you.

Now there are different ways to interpret this exchange. You might say she is trying to ease the situation by making a joke, she wants to help him by going for a certain lightness. But you could also say that she interrupts him with a cheeky remark while he is sorting out his feelings. She could have been moved or grateful or, more important, stated that she feels the same. All of which she does not. She says “sorry“ but how heartfelt is this really?

Scene 2: The café

JOHN: Oh, so it’s your brother’s plan?
MARY: Oh, he would have needed a confidant ...
SHERLOCK: Mm-hm.
MARY: Sorry.

Same thing as above. Of course she is right with her remark but it hurts John, she is rubbing in the fact that was not him Sherlock chose as a confidant. She apologises again but the words cannot be taken back.

Scene 3: In the street

Sherlock deduces Mary and we get some hints that she might not be who she pretends to be. There is not just the obvious “liar“ but also “linguist“ (we thought she was a nurse) and “disillusioned“ (why? in which way?) and “guardian“ which might or might not apply to the newspaper.
But we are distracted from these early hints by her promise to Sherlock that she will tell John around and once again by her telling John that she likes Sherlock. Maybe she does tell him around but we do not get this from the shaving scene (which is quite funny and moving).

MARY: Are you gonna see him again?
JOHN: No – I’m going to work.
MARY: Oh. And after work, are you gonna see him again?

After work she asks him again if he is going to see Sherlock but we never see her persuade John to go. It might be his own decision for all we know.

Then there is the skip-code message which she decodes extremely fast. And at arriving at the bonfire there is this piece of dialogue.

SHERLOCK: Oh my God.
JOHN: Help!
(SHERLOCK (to Mary): Jump off!
SHERLOCK: Move! Move! Move! Move! Move!
SHERLOCK: John!
MARY: John! Get out, John!
JOHN: Help!
SHERLOCK: John? John!
(He gently pats John’s face.)
MARY: John.
SHERLOCK: Hey, John.

Sherlock is clearly in panic and fears for John‘s life. Imagine John in the middle of the bonfire, clearly trapped inside, and what does Mary say: “Get out, John!“ It is not the first thing I would say if my husband-to-be was about to be burnt alive, buried under a very big heap of wood.

My impression from this episode is that Mary may be sassy and clever but not necessarily a very loving person - with one exception. The first time we see her is on the cemetery when she stands at John‘s side and takes his hand. There are no words, just this gesture. Apart from occasional kisses and the wedding dance IMO it is the only scene in which she shows real love and compassion towards John.

**Posted by SusiGo** February 23, 2014 7:58 pm

And then there is TSoT.

First I would like to look at the long wedding planning scene. Mary and Sherlock are eager, John less so, which is all fine. But then we get this exchange:

MARY: Hello?
MARY: Oh, hi, Beth!
MARY (into phone): Yeah, yeah, don’t see why not.
JOHN: Actually, if that’s Beth, it’s probably for me too. Hang on.
JOHN: He knows we don’t have a friend called Beth. He’s gonna figure out that it’s code.

So Beth does not exist, she is just a code between Mary and John. She reminds me of Cath who Mary wanted to visit the evening John was kidnapped. Cath who does not seem to appear at the wedding and is never mentioned again. Beth/Cath, might be coincidence but the universe is rarely so lazy.

When watching it for the first time I liked Mary‘s little plot to get them out of the flat and solve a crime together. But it also shows how manipulative she can be, especially towards Sherlock. She uses his feelings for John to get them out of the flat while John himself is in the know. Or is he not?
Remember the moment when she gives them the thumbs-up while the horns of the bison skull seem to grow out of her own head. In the Moftiss universe such an image cannot be a coincidence. And I wonder what she is doing she remains alone in the flat for hours.

However, I think this episode is mostly characterised by what is not there, that is with regard to John and Mary. As someone pointed out on tumblr, in all of series 3 they do not once declare their love for each other, not even on the occasion of their wedding. What do you remember if you think of this episode?

I myself remember the funny scenes but most of all I remember the fact that the whole episode is a declaration of love - not by the two people getting married but by the best man to his best friend.

Sure, we get these lines spoken by John but they are directed at Sherlock, not at Mary.

No, it is! It is, and I want to be up there with the two people that I love and care about most in the world.

And then there is this sentence by Sherlock addressed to John:

Today you sit between the woman you have made your wife and the man you have saved – in short, the two people who love you most in all this world.

These are the only times in this episode that love is mentioned with regard to these three people. And in my opinion they are quite telling:

John says he loves Sherlock and Mary.
Sherlock says that he and Mary love John.
But Mary never says that she loves anyone.

**Posted by SusiGo** February 23, 2014 8:01 pm

Actually I did not want to dwell on HLV as so much has been said about the episode already but I would like to continue this theme until the end.

We get this line by Sherlock:

So is it truly such a surprise that the woman you’ve fallen in love with conforms to that pattern?

This is Sherlock telling John that John loves Mary.

And what about Mary herself? What does she have to say about her feelings? Not much, actually.

If you love me, don’t read it in front of me.

This is totally selfish. She is focussed on her own feelings, what it would do to her if John read the contents of the flash drive. But what about his feelings, his disappointment, his shock?

And shortly afterwards there is this:

Because you won’t love me when you’ve finished ... and I don’t want to see that happen.

The same pattern - self-centred and callous towards John. Does it ring a bell? It reminded me of her veiled threats in Leinster Gardens:

Because John can’t ever know that I lied to him. It would break him and I would lose him forever – and, Sherlock, I will never let that happen.

There is nothing in this world that I would not do to stop that happening.

So, what is my conclusion?

We are meant to like Mary on the surface but if you dig deeper there are quite a lot if hints that she is not who she pretends be from the very beginning.

There is a certain lack not only of romance which would be acceptable, but of kindness, especially towards John.

She never declares that she loves John - neither to himself, nor to Sherlock or anyone else.

So where does that leave us? We may speculate about Sherlock‘s true motives in persuading John to reconcile with Mary. I simply cannot not buy the “you are attracted to dangerous persons“ thing. But then I remembered Moriarty‘s words that brought Sherlock back to life:

It’s him that I worry about the most. That wife! You’re letting him down, Sherlock. John Watson is definitely in danger.

These are of course Sherlock‘s own thoughts, this is his opinion about Mary. And look at the things that happen next - there is nothing there to explain why he should change his mind and think her less dangerous and the ideal wife for his best friend: She walks into his hospital room and softly threatens him not to tell John the truth about her. Next he lures her to Leinster Gardens where she appears with a gun and threaten to kill anyone who comes between her and John. She obviously is willing to kill off Sherlock on the spot if it was the only way for her to keep John.

And I think that this might be the explanation for Sherlock‘s surprising behaviour at Baker Street. I think he has realised that for now it might be more dangerous for John to leave Mary than to stay with her. He possibly fears that she would take desperate measures to keep John for herself and that she might even go as far as to say: When I can‘t have you, nobody shall.

So why did he kill CAM if not for her? Not only Mary was in danger but everyone connected to her, including John. And as Benedict said, he had lost his game and saw no other way to rid the world of CAM (which would be in character as I cannot imagine Sherlock killing someone for purely personal reasons).

I just realised that I did not consider the pregnancy. But there have been quite a lot of theories about that so I think it may be forgivable if I skip this.

I have tried to avoid pure speculation and to stick to the facts. Let me know your thoughts.

**Posted by RavenMorganLeigh** February 23, 2014 8:21 pm

Awesome points. Well done!!!

One thing-- I have never understood how Mary and John could have a "suprise" pregnancy. I mean, they are not teenagers, and they understand contraception and the risks of unprotected sex. So-- err.. what gives?

**Posted by SusiGo** February 23, 2014 9:21 pm

Thank you for taking so much time to address my thoughts.

Just one thing - I have no idea why everything about series 3 has to get so personal. There has been a level of personal attacks since the airing of series 3 that I have never known in this forum. This not about bashing a character but about analysing what is there to see and hear. I am not bashing anything or anyone. To be honest - such a statement as yours is the reason why I waited two weeks to post this at all.

Last edited by SusiGo (February 23, 2014 9:22 pm)

**Posted by SusiGo** February 23, 2014 9:34 pm

Swanpride, I have said none of the above things. I have not expressed any dislike for the scripts but have tried to show that there are several layers and ways to interpret certain things. I really do not see why people get so terribly passionate about this. I honestly prefer Sherlock and John on their own but I try to not let it influence the way I perceive the show. Moftiss had to deal with the marriage and they chose to do it this way. Full stop.
Maybe you should try not to take it so much to heart.

**Posted by RavenMorganLeigh** February 23, 2014 9:40 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Thank you for taking so much time to address my thoughts.

Just one thing - I have no idea why everything about series 3 has to get so personal. There has been a level of personal attacks since the airing of series 3 that I have never known in this forum. This not about bashing a character but about analysing what is there to see and hear. I am not bashing anything or anyone. To be honest - such a statement as yours is the reason why I waited two weeks to post this at all.

I hear you. I got taken to the woodshed, because I'm writing a fic that *doesn't* absolve Mary, and have Sherlock, John and Mary living in a polyamorous wonderland. It's gotten weird enough where I seriously considered not even bothering to finish my story. Not! ;-)

Maybe we all need to ...just breathe and remember this is supposed to be for fun. :-)

**Posted by SusiGo** February 23, 2014 9:45 pm

I agree with you, Raven. The fun has gone a bit short during the last weeks.
I think it is due to the nature of series 3 that there is so much discussion about the characters and the directions they take. Which is fine because this makes Sherlock interesting. I only criticise the way it is sometimes discusssed, not the discussion as such.
P.S. I am no friend of polyamory either.

Last edited by SusiGo (February 23, 2014 9:48 pm)

**Posted by SolarSystem** February 23, 2014 9:47 pm

Well, but what are people who don't like Mary for whatever reason or who have a problem with the way she is written supposed to do? Aren't they allowed to state their opinions? I understand that it is difficult to read all these things when you like Mary, Swanpride, but let's face it: you go to great lengths to defend her while others go to similarly great lengths to state what they don't like about her and why.
I agree, it shouldn't get personal. But it seems Mofftiss have done a pretty good job in creating a character that makes for quite controversial debates.

**Posted by RavenMorganLeigh** February 23, 2014 9:47 pm

Swanpride wrote:
@RavenMorganLeigh Unplanned pregnancy's happen all the time, even if contraception is used. There is no way to avoid it for sure...well, I guess if you use a condom AND take the pill, it is very, very unlikely that it happens. But even then it is not impossible.

@Susi-Go I tried to keep away for a time, too, but nothing seems to change. I'm sorry, I'm a little bit defensive at this point. But I honestly like Mary, and the post about her seem to keep worse and worse. Now she even is "only pretending to like Sherlock" because she dares not to smile while he is send in the exile. The bashing was less about you, but about the fact that in every single thread people feel compelled to express their dislike for the way Mary was written and their hope that she'll die soon - even in the one I made specifically for liking her. I am really tired of this. It has been more than a months by now, but the negativity keeps getting worse and worse. I am currently thinking seriously about leaving the fandom for a while, because it really ruins the fun I had with the show so far.

Hey there, Swanpride--
I'm just saying that since Mary's a nurse and John a doctor, you'd think that they would be the last people to get caught with an unplanned, unexpected pregnancy. And they were together only what, six months before John popped the question? That's a little fast, and ,frankly, with John in his forties, you'd think he'd know better. Mary's not young either-- it's risky for older women to get pregnant; there can be all sorts of complications from that... it's just suprising, is all.

Keep in mind that no-one is attacking you via their own observations about the characters. I don't think anyone is trying to hurt your feelings; people just have different opinions, and they should all be free to voice them; and that includes you, too. :-)

**Posted by SusiGo** February 23, 2014 9:54 pm

True, the writers wanted to create a controversial character and they have succeeded. But the fact that so many people find it difficult to like her shows IMO that the negative aspects may prevail.

**Posted by RavenMorganLeigh** February 23, 2014 9:55 pm

SusiGo wrote:
I agree with you, Raven. The fun has gone a bit short during the last weeks.
I think it is due to the nature of series 3 that there is so much discussion about the characters and the directions they take. Which is fine because this makes Sherlock interesting. I only criticise the way it is sometimes discusssed, not the discussion as such.
P.S. I am no friend of polyamory either.

Heh. Here's the funny thing about that story-- I don;t actually have anything against polyamory perse-- but in my story I made clear that I didn't think it would work for Sherlock; and that it would be kind of cruel to suggest it to him. And I confess that I am absolutley *not* inclined to the lifestyle, myself.

But it's looking at the actual events and characterization in season 3 that intrigues me, and actually I find the mixed messages with the way Mary is portrayed just...baffling. On the other hand, if she's an actual psychopath, one of the things she would be skilled at doing is charming people into liking her, sort of "the wolf in sheep's clothing" approach to all of her relationships.

**Posted by LoveIsAViciousMotivator** February 23, 2014 9:58 pm

I will agree with Swanpride on TEH. I don't see anything wrong with Mary's actions in this episode. She is very supportive and seems to want to help John try and fix his relationship with Sherlock.

Susigo, you make a good point about the fact that in TSoT, we never saw the marriage vows nor did we see Mary and John show declaring their love for one another. Mostly, the episode focused on John and Sherlock. Mary seemed to just be there in the wedding dress. I think that is the fault of the writers, not of the character herself.

I believe if the writers took the chance to show us Mary and John alone. Maybe a couple of flashbacks or implications of how Mary helped John recover from his best friend's supposed death. Maybe like in the wedding, see these two together (without Sherlock) showing their love and geniune affection. I bet people or at least, the majority of fans (there are just some people who already made up their minds to hate this character and even if she was written better, still hate her, will just continue to hate her) would perceive her better and see that , though flawed in her actions, geniunely does love John.

About HLV, I will tackle that one later. To me, that is just a mess.

Last edited by LoveIsAViciousMotivator (February 23, 2014 9:59 pm)

**Posted by RavenMorganLeigh** February 23, 2014 10:02 pm

LoveIsAViciousMotivator wrote:
I will agree with Swanpride on TEH. I don't see anything wrong with Mary's actions in this episode. She is very supportive and seems to want to help John try and fix his relationship with Sherlock.

Susigo, you make a good point about the fact that in TSoT, we never saw the marriage vows nor did we see Mary and John show declaring their love for one another. Mostly, the episode focused on John and Sherlock. Mary seemed to just be there in the wedding dress. I think that is the fault of the writers, not of the character herself.

I believe if the writers took the chance to show us Mary and John alone. Maybe a couple of flashbacks or implications of how Mary helped John recover from his best friend's supposed death. Maybe like in the wedding, see these two together (without Sherlock) showing their love and geniune affection. I bet people or at least, the majority of fans (there are just some people who already made up their minds to hate this character and even if she was written better, still hate her, will just continue to hate her) would perceive her better and see that , though flawed in her actions, geniunely does love John.

But...erm, the character Mary is a creation of the writers. That means she is what they wanted her to be. She can't independently up and decide to be a great person and then be mad that the writers didn't portray her that way... she is the way she is because the writers wrote her that way, and that is what fans are responding to. So, I don't quite understand what you mean...

**Posted by Fillyjonk** February 23, 2014 10:06 pm

I haven't been in the forum much this season, because honestly, the heated debate sometimes ruins the fun of enjoying the story for me. (It gets so meta that you almost can't un-meta your brain afterwards!) Anyway, I was thinking about Mary, John, and Sherlock as I walked my dog today. For me, it came down to selflessness of the love.

John: Would die for Sherlock. Would die for Mary.

Sherlock: Would die for John. Would die for Mary-for-John.

Mary: Would likely die for John. But wouldn't die for Sherlock.* Would even kill him if she needed to. Tsk tsk.

*This with a footnote that perhaps, perhaps, perhaps in season 4, she will die for Sherlock, in John's view. Thus redeeming herself and eliminating the inconvenience of her presence from the Johnlock dynamic, and further cementing our boys.

Fillyjonk

**Posted by nakahara** February 23, 2014 10:11 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
I agree with you, Raven. The fun has gone a bit short during the last weeks.
I think it is due to the nature of series 3 that there is so much discussion about the characters and the directions they take. Which is fine because this makes Sherlock interesting. I only criticise the way it is sometimes discusssed, not the discussion as such.
P.S. I am no friend of polyamory either.
Heh. Here's the funny thing about that story-- I don;t actually have anything against polyamory perse-- but in my story I made clear that I didn't think it would work for Sherlock; and that it would be kind of cruel to suggest it to him. And I confess that I am absolutley *not* inclined to the lifestyle, myself.

But it's looking at the actual events and characterization in season 3 that intrigues me, and actually I find the mixed messages with the way Mary is portrayed just...baffling. On the other hand, if she's an actual psychopath, one of the things she would be skilled at doing is charming people into liking her, sort of "the wolf in sheep's clothing" approach to all of her relationships.

What I find amusing is that both Moriarty (or rather his spectre inhabiting Sherlock′s head) and CAM – who are rather repulsive individuals themselves – find Mary to be a reaaaaally bad piece of work. She must be incredibly nasty in her real form if she scares even the kings of crime with her past deeds.

(But I must say I find this „assassin Mary“ character much more interesting than „John′s sassy and nosy wife Mary“ character she was in TEH and TSOT. On the other hand, I suspected from the very start that her nice behaviour is just an act...)

Couldn′t agree more on that „wolf in sheep′s clothing“, through.

**Posted by tobeornot221b** February 23, 2014 10:11 pm

Swanpride wrote:
. It's in my eyes no longer a discussion about her character, it has become more and more just bashing. "Let's see what else we can find to prove that she is unworthy of Sherlock sacrifice".

No, I don't think so. Sherlock's sacrifice isn't meant for Mary, but in the long run, like Susi said, for John. Remember mind palace Moriarty's "John Watson is definitely in danger", not "Mary is in danger".

**Posted by Fillyjonk** February 23, 2014 10:14 pm

Swanpride wrote:
Well, why should she die for Sherlock? She only knows him for less than a year. She isn't in love with him. And I bet, she would risk her life for him - but not the life of her unborn child and her marriage.

Sherlock has sacrificed his entire future for her safety because he knows it is best for John. He barely knows her... and she shot him in the chest. But he does this incredibly selfless thing.

She knows what Sherlock means to John, and shoots him to avoid unpleasantness between her and John. (I don't think she believes not shooting Sherlock will kill John - just that it will ruin her relationship with him.)

Sure, the baby makes a big difference. I just don't think she's as selfless as John and Sherlock are. Not bashing her - just telling it like I see it.

Maybe (and I really hope so) she'll do something incredibly selfless next season. (I can't honestly think anything but they'll have to remove her - and making her be the Big Bad is so incredibly damaging to John. I'd much rather she be a last-minute heroine.)

Fillyjonk

Last edited by Fillyjonk (February 23, 2014 10:16 pm)

**Posted by LoveIsAViciousMotivator** February 23, 2014 10:16 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
But...erm, the character Mary is a creation of the writers. That means she is what they wanted her to be. She can't independently up and decide to be a great person and then be mad that the writers didn't portray her that way... she is the way she is because the writers wrote her that way, and that is what fans are responding to. So, I don't quite understand what you mean...

I don't understand how you can't understand what I said there. I know she is a creation of the writers. No where did I say that this character is magically this. What I said in my post was that I believe the writers made a mistake in not showing us moments of geniune affection from John and Mary, especially the wedding scenes.

The writers seem to tell us Mary loves John and John loves Mary. I just wish we were shown more rather than told. That's all.

@Swanpride: Oh yeah! XD I know it is cliche and yes, those moments were great. I guess I wanted to see more.

Last edited by LoveIsAViciousMotivator (February 23, 2014 10:18 pm)

**Posted by SusiGo** February 23, 2014 10:17 pm

@ Ani: I agree. We must keep in mind that it is Sherlock and not an imaginary Moriarty speaking. It is Sherlock thinking "That wife!" And he thinks it in the most crucial moment of his life (or death) so it must be important.
I actually started writing all this because I simply cannot believe Sherlock's explanation in Baker Street. I felt totally unwell with this and tried to find out if there is a reason for his saying these things to John.

Last edited by SusiGo (February 23, 2014 10:18 pm)