BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / Mary, a Holmes?

**Posted by Thinbeard** February 8, 2014 11:20 pm

The various clues could all be "red herrings" but I'll point out a few all the same.

1.The Holmes parents show up simultaneously with Mary. They apparently live in America while Mary seems to have American connections.
2.It is made abundantly clear that she's bright enough in that "Holmseian" way.
3.Mention is made of "...what happened to the other one." without specifying gender.
4.In The Adventure of the Copper Beeches Holmes, at least twice, makes reference to a possible sister.
5.I believe Mary and Mrs. Holmes both refer to Mycroft as "Mike". Janine certainly does and she's Mary's friend.
6.Mary says that the elder Mr. Holmes is the sane Holmes but he suggests it's her.
7.If you listen carefully, Mrs. Holmes refers to her husband as "...your father." when speaking to Mary
Any takers?

**Posted by saturnR** February 8, 2014 11:44 pm

This would suggest that the sister and the two sons were seperated at birth (or at least when they were all very young). Not sure under what circumstances it would prompt their parents to do that.

**Posted by Thinbeard** February 9, 2014 1:22 am

Mary could be an older sibling, an illegitimate half-sister or possibly Uncle Rudy's only child and therefore a cousin. Under any circumstances, her initials are provided for a later revelation and are probably encoded.
Everything in this show is either a red herring or a useful clue. The hard part is telling the difference.

Last edited by Thinbeard (February 9, 2014 4:21 am)

**Posted by Kirito2750** February 9, 2014 5:22 pm

Interesting, I agree this is correct, including the bit about Ms. Holmes saying, "your father." Also the fact that Jenine and Ms. Holmes both refer to Mycroft as Mike or Mikey makes this a very interesting theory.

**Posted by tobeornot221b** February 9, 2014 5:43 pm

Thinbeard wrote:
The various clues could all be "red herrings" but I'll point out a few all the same.

1.The Holmes parents show up simultaneously with Mary. They apparently live in America while Mary seems to have American connections.

No, they don't live in America. They live in a helicopter's operating distance to Appledore.

**Posted by Thinbeard** February 9, 2014 9:13 pm

Mycroft clearly identifies their parents as residing in Oklahoma. This happens around the 16 minute mark of the most recent episode. Mary is identified as having done work for the C.I.A. at around the 77 minute mark. The home where Christmas is spent may or may not be a Holmes family property but this is irrelevant.

**Posted by SusiGo** February 9, 2014 9:25 pm

No, Mycroft says they had to interrupt their line dancing in Oklahoma. This does not mean that they live there.

**Posted by tobeornot221b** February 9, 2014 9:29 pm

I think "Oklahoma" refers to the musical, not the state.

**Posted by SusiGo** February 9, 2014 9:32 pm

Good point, Tobe. We do not know for sure and this has been discussed elsewhere, but they do definitely live in this very cottage in the English countryside.

Last edited by SusiGo (February 9, 2014 9:32 pm)

**Posted by SolarSystem** February 9, 2014 9:38 pm

I'm also not sure what is meant by "the Holmes parents show up simultaneously with Mary"...? You mean, at the same time? That wouldn't be correct, would it, because Mary shows up way before Sherlock returns from the dead and his parents come to visit him. At least six months earlier, probably even earlier.

**Posted by Thinbeard** February 10, 2014 12:05 am

At the 16 minute mark Mycroft states that he "...will have to phone our parents, of course, in Oklahoma. It won't be the first time that your substance abuse had wreaked havoc with their line dancing." Does anyone seriously suggest that the writers mean for us to conclude that the elder Holmses so regularly visit Oklahoma for the purpose of line dancing that Sherlocks drug problem has interrupted their trip before? In addition, why were the parents not at the funeral other than because they were in Oklahoma? Also, if my parents are acting in a Boston based production of "Romeo and Juliet", I don't phone them in "Romeo and Juliet". I phone them in Boston.
When I say that Mary and the Holmes parents arrive simultaneously I don't mean in the chronology of the story. I just mean to say that they arrived in the same episode. This is fiction. I'm not trying to figure out what really happened, because it didn't. I'm trying to figure out what the writers are trying to sell me. I believe that there is a reason why the parents have been introduced other than providing work for Cumberbatch's mom and dad.
Oh, and one more thing. Once again, this is television so take this with a grain a salt but the cottage where Christmas is spent is clearly not the same building where Sherlock has his flashback with Redbeard.

Last edited by Thinbeard (February 10, 2014 1:04 am)

**Posted by lil** February 10, 2014 6:49 am

Well...Mary got her false ID from a baby that died in 1972.
In the same other one convo.. Mycroft also says we don't want a repeat of 1972.
So some connection there maybe.
But another faked death.......uh no

**Posted by SusiGo** February 10, 2014 8:14 am

Thinbeard wrote:
At the 16 minute mark Mycroft states that he "...will have to phone our parents, of course, in Oklahoma. It won't be the first time that your substance abuse had wreaked havoc with their line dancing." Does anyone seriously suggest that the writers mean for us to conclude that the elder Holmses so regularly visit Oklahoma for the purpose of line dancing that Sherlocks drug problem has interrupted their trip before? In addition, why were the parents not at the funeral other than because they were in Oklahoma? Also, if my parents are acting in a Boston based production of "Romeo and Juliet", I don't phone them in "Romeo and Juliet". I phone them in Boston.
When I say that Mary and the Holmes parents arrive simultaneously I don't mean in the chronology of the story. I just mean to say that they arrived in the same episode. This is fiction. I'm not trying to figure out what really happened, because it didn't. I'm trying to figure out what the writers are trying to sell me. I believe that there is a reason why the parents have been introduced other than providing work for Cumberbatch's mom and dad.
Oh, and one more thing. Once again, this is television so take this with a grain a salt but the cottage where Christmas is spent is clearly not the same building where Sherlock has his flashback with Redbeard.

As for the cottage: the building where Sherlock has the flashback with Redbeard is Roland Kerr College from ASiP where John shoots the cabbie. It is exactly the same hallway. In his mind palace he looks for something to calm himself to and returns to the place where John saved his life. In this important place he meets his childhood dog, another memory he uses to get himself out of shock.
I think no one said that the cottage and the place he meets Redbeard are one and the same.

As for the idea of Mary being a Holmes - I do not think that Moftiss would distance themselves so far from Canon as to hint at a third Holmes brother and pop up with a sister as well. This would be stretching our imagination a bit too far.

**Posted by This Is The Phantom Lady** February 10, 2014 8:31 am

It would surely be an interesting concept. But like you @SusiGo I also think it would stray too far from Canon for Mofftiss... In the interviews they always talk about how tight they want to be with this adaptation to the original.

But I do like that Mary has a bit of Holmes' to her; it says a lot about John I feel

**Posted by zeratul** February 10, 2014 8:38 am

As about seperating the children. She could be just the daughter of Mr. Holmes, but with a different mother, not knowing the family itself?

**Posted by Thinbeard** February 10, 2014 2:50 pm

Sir Arthur decided Mary's fate long ago. It is my understanding that nothing in any of his writings excludes the possibilities of further siblings, either male or female. I very much liked the suggestion, made elsewhere, that Janine is a Moriarity sister. Of course, there could have been more than one of those as well.

Last edited by Thinbeard (February 10, 2014 3:18 pm)

**Posted by TheTrades** February 10, 2014 3:09 pm

I don't believe Mary is a Holmes.

I believe Mary is a Moriarty by marriage.

MARY ELIZABETH MORSTAN is an anagram for HAZEL STEBMAN MORIARTY.

**Posted by anniea** March 16, 2014 9:15 pm

lil wrote:
Well...Mary got her false ID from a baby that died in 1972.
In the same other one convo.. Mycroft also says we don't want a repeat of 1972.
So some connection there maybe.
But another faked death.......uh no

Good point he does seem upset when he says this, seems a bit to complicated though dunno

**Posted by the_dancing_woman** March 17, 2014 9:49 am

Interesting point, but honestly I don't like the idea of Mary being a Holmes. Sounds a bit too much like from a cheap drama.
I'm very curious though to find out more about Mary's background in series 4, and I think we are definitely going to get a quite a few interesting revelations.

**Posted by RavenMorganLeigh** March 28, 2014 10:26 pm

TheTrades wrote:
I don't believe Mary is a Holmes.

I believe Mary is a Moriarty by marriage.

MARY ELIZABETH MORSTAN is an anagram for HAZEL STEBMAN MORIARTY.

Wow. Way cool.