BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / Johnlock: The Official Debate

**Posted by besleybean** January 12, 2014 8:58 am

I think they pushed the boundaries enough, with the 1st televised inter-racial kiss!

**Posted by Schmiezi** January 12, 2014 9:02 am

... 46 years ago.

**Posted by besleybean** January 12, 2014 9:05 am

Way to make me feel old!

**Posted by TeeJay** January 12, 2014 9:09 am

SolarSystem wrote:
And then, what do they do? They try to pull something off with Jadzia for one episode, and the great 'excuse' is that she's a Trill and the woman she's with in that episode also is a Trill and that in the past one of them was a man. I've never been happy with that episode...

Funnily enough, I was just going to mention THE KISS. But I think you need to consider that this was 1995, and the acceptance of homosexuality on TV (and in society) just wasn't really there. Not like it is today, even though we're still far away from true acceptance.

**Posted by Schmiezi** January 12, 2014 9:12 am

SolarSystem wrote:
Schmiezi wrote:
BTW, being a full-fledged Star Trek fan, I am really sad that no Star Trek show can be named here. IMO they really missed something!
I totally agree, Schmiezi. There would have been so many opportunities, so many possible great pairings even with the characters that are in all those shows. And then, what do they do? They try to pull something off with Jadzia for one episode, and the great 'excuse' is that she's a Trill and the woman she's with in that episode also is a Trill and that in the past one of them was a man. I've never been happy with that episode...

Me neither.

**Posted by Schmiezi** January 12, 2014 9:15 am

besleybean wrote:
Way to make me feel old!

Sorry!

**Posted by besleybean** January 12, 2014 9:27 am

Tee Hee.

**Posted by SolarSystem** January 12, 2014 9:43 am

TeeJay wrote:
SolarSystem wrote:
And then, what do they do? They try to pull something off with Jadzia for one episode, and the great 'excuse' is that she's a Trill and the woman she's with in that episode also is a Trill and that in the past one of them was a man. I've never been happy with that episode...
Funnily enough, I was just going to mention THE KISS. But I think you need to consider that this was 1995, and the acceptance of homosexuality on TV (and in society) just wasn't really there. Not like it is today, even though we're still far away from true acceptance.

Yes, but there were opportunities later on. Voyager was broadcast until 2001, Enterprise until 2005. Star Trek always also was a political show, a show about tolerance. They could have found a way to pull this off, I'm sure.

**Posted by TeeJay** January 12, 2014 10:37 am

SolarSystem wrote:
Yes, but there were opportunities later on. Voyager was broadcast until 2001, Enterprise until 2005. Star Trek always also was a political show, a show about tolerance. They could have found a way to pull this off, I'm sure.

Yes, I agree, especially since Star Trek has always prided itself on having a very tolerant and diverse fandom. Quite a shame that they never quite tackled the issue. Instead they went more mainstream and tried to appease the male viewers with sex symbol stereotypes like Seven of Nine...

**Posted by Schmiezi** January 12, 2014 11:03 am

TeeJay wrote:
SolarSystem wrote:
Yes, but there were opportunities later on. Voyager was broadcast until 2001, Enterprise until 2005. Star Trek always also was a political show, a show about tolerance. They could have found a way to pull this off, I'm sure.
Yes, I agree, especially since Star Trek has always prided itself on having a very tolerant and diverse fandom. Quite a shame that they never quite tackled the issue. Instead they went more mainstream and tried to appease the male viewers with sex symbol stereotypes like Seven of Nine...

...I'm female and also enjoyed looking at Seven of Nine.

**Posted by TeeJay** January 12, 2014 11:05 am

Schmiezi wrote:
...I'm female and also enjoyed looking at Seven of Nine.

I'm female, and I didn't.

**Posted by silverblaze** January 12, 2014 11:41 am

Oh, I liked Seven, she was more interesting than Kes. It was Neelix I couldn't stand. Could anyone? Anyway, I still think they left all their good writing for TNG, Voyager was something I watched because TNG was finished, but for me it felt much more contrived.

Bridging back to the homophobia, there was one episode in TNG (one of the very few I still remember) that paid a lot of attention to this issue. In the story they have contact with a planet in which the inhabitants have no genders. However, sometimes a person is born who feels that it is male or female. This was looked down upon by the people, and if they found out, the person would get some type of brainwashing treatment to 'cure' them, so they would hide their sexuality. In the episode, Riker gets to know a female of that species and eventually she gets brainwashed.

It has been critisised because it's hetero again, but I think that is pure ignorance. In my opinion, it was a brilliant way to show heterosexual people what it must be like to be gay in a society that is not accepting of who you are.

**Posted by TeeJay** January 12, 2014 11:43 am

I also remember an Enterprise episode where they encountered a race that had three genders, which had this whole "gender role" philosophical undertone throughout the episode. (Not that I thought it was a very good episode, but I'm just sayin'...)

Last edited by TeeJay (January 12, 2014 11:43 am)

**Posted by silverblaze** January 12, 2014 12:17 pm

Oh, I think Startrek had occasional brilliant writing, but even more contrived screenwriters-on-a-deadline storylines. But I grew up with TNG, so it always has a special place in my heart.

Back to the homophobia discussion. People, realise that sociological meaning of terms like homophobia, racism and sexism is very different from the colloquial meaning. They're mixed up all the time and it's really annoying because you end up blaming well meaning people who are not any of those things for living in a certain society.

**Posted by Ozma** January 12, 2014 12:23 pm

NotYourHousekeeperDear wrote:
I haven't read the canon since I was about 13 (on my to do list to revist!) but I have to say I think the sexual tension between John and Sherlock in the BBC series is undeniable. I remember watching A Study in Pink for the first time and just thinking how revolutionary it was. They are like Scully and Mulder, Bones and Booth- if they were different genders no one would even question the obvious sexual tension

I completely and utterly agree. I am not a Johnlocker per se, meaning that I don't see them as wanting to sleep with each other, more like as loving each other a lot, perhaps even each being the most important person in the other's life - ideally I would love it to stay that way, as it gives me a warm feeling - thinking that they will always be safe with each other and will always be able to trust each other, and always have the other's back no matter what (that is what attracted me to this show, and this is why Mary is a hindrance to that for me).

But - and this obviously must be premeditated by mofftiss, so would like to know what game they are playing - the sexual tension is there - I see the same thing that used to be in The XFiles, like you mention (I used to be a hardcore fan back in the 90s, I know what I'm talking about )

I agree that if John and Sherlock were of opposite gender, people would right now be surprised that they haven't kissed yet.

**Posted by Ormond Sacker** January 12, 2014 12:29 pm

First off thanks to NotYourHouseKeeper, that was part of my point. And may I just say that I have never accused anyone here of homophobia, I've always found the Sherlock fandom surprisingly open to non-straights, I was talking about society at large.

And thanks for all the TV-series . I can see I need to do some catching up. I have only watched three of them.

**Posted by TeeJay** January 12, 2014 12:34 pm

Ormond Sacker wrote:
And thanks for all the TV-series . I can see I need to do some catching up. I have only watched three of them.

If I can make a suggestion.... ReGenesis. And ReGenesis. Have I mentioned ReGenesis?

Honestly, it's one of the most underrated shows out there. A Canadian production that never got the credit it deserved outside of Canada. Maybe you have to be interested in science to fully enjoy it, but I also know non-scientists who loved it. Unfortunately, only seasons 1 and 2 are available on DVD (except for Japan). The show had four seasons in total.

**Posted by Ormond Sacker** January 12, 2014 12:40 pm

TeeJay wrote:
Ormond Sacker wrote:
And thanks for all the TV-series . I can see I need to do some catching up. I have only watched three of them.
If I can make a suggestion.... ReGenesis. And ReGenesis. Have I mentioned ReGenesis?

Honestly, it's one of the most underrated shows out there. A Canadian production that never got the credit it deserved outside of Canada. Maybe you have to be interested in science to fully enjoy it, but I also know non-scientists who loved it. Unfortunately, only seasons 1 and 2 are available on DVD (except for Japan). The show had four seasons in total.

Hmm, no I don't think you did .

I'll see if I can hunt down ReGenesis then.

**Posted by silverblaze** January 12, 2014 12:47 pm

I loved the Mulder and Scully relationship, pity Chris Carter was such a terrible plotter. But for me, I'd rather see that as a deep friendship than as a romantic thing. Same for John and Sherlock. For some reason, it seems impossible to portray a good friendship without it becoming a sexual relationship, as someone said here before, our society is really sexualised like that. People see ships everywhere, gay, straight, doesn't matter. People in this society don't form those deep friendships anymore, they expect all that from their relationship but it hasn't always been like that.

As for the Moftiss, it wouldn't surprise me if they draw inspiration from their own platonic friendship. Have you seen them interacting? If they were fictional, people would ship them to death.

**Posted by KeepersPrice** January 12, 2014 1:49 pm

What about 'Torchwood', a Doctor Who spin-off. Captain Jack Harkness is portrayed as omnisexual (male, female, alien, whatever strikes his fancy) but in the shows I've seen, his preference seems to be for men. They are quite open about it, onscreen kissing, etc.
Quite wonderful in my opinion.