besleybean wrote:

When John is speaking to Greg, he seems ashamed of how hard he hit Sherlock.

Yes, he is not proud of it and regrets it. He is calm now, just tired and is trying to understand what happened and why it happened and if he could have foreseen it somehow and prevent it. 
How he could have got to the point when he beaten up his best friend whom he hates at the moment for many reasons but it does not mean that he is not still his friend. He is a monster but his monster.And Mary would never forgive him if anything bad happen to Sherlock.

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

I keep seeing people go on about mental manipulation/abuse as being worse than physical abuse: and I think many don't get this fact: Physical abuse is also mental abuse and manipulation: it's terrorizing someone. It's intimidation. It's forcing someone to constantly gauge the other person's mood, lest they be on the receiving end of that person's rage. It's constantly changing your behavior to fit someone else's expectations, their moods, their values, their opinions... suddenly, you have no agency of your own-- everything depends on what your abuser thinks of you at any given moment. That can depend on what they had for breakfast, whether they got the job, if they blame you for something you didn't do-- because you're the automatic whipping boy. 

Physical abuse IS emotional and mental abuse, with the added bonus of visible, tangible scars to carry with you for the rest of your life. 

It destroys your ability to trust someone, anyone-- to not hurt you. 
 

BIG APPLAUSE.

Preceja wrote:

besleybean wrote:

When John is speaking to Greg, he seems ashamed of how hard he hit Sherlock.

Yes, he is not proud of it and regrets it. He is calm now, just tired and is trying to understand what happened and why it happened and if he could have foreseen it somehow and prevent it. 
How he could have got to the point when he beaten up his best friend whom he hates at the moment for many reasons but it does not mean that he is not still his friend. He is a monster but his monster.And Mary would never forgive him if anything bad happen to Sherlock.

John calling Sherlock a monster is like a pot calling the kettle black...

nakahara wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

I keep seeing people go on about mental manipulation/abuse as being worse than physical abuse: and I think many don't get this fact: Physical abuse is also mental abuse and manipulation: it's terrorizing someone. It's intimidation. It's forcing someone to constantly gauge the other person's mood, lest they be on the receiving end of that person's rage. It's constantly changing your behavior to fit someone else's expectations, their moods, their values, their opinions... suddenly, you have no agency of your own-- everything depends on what your abuser thinks of you at any given moment. That can depend on what they had for breakfast, whether they got the job, if they blame you for something you didn't do-- because you're the automatic whipping boy. 

Physical abuse IS emotional and mental abuse, with the added bonus of visible, tangible scars to carry with you for the rest of your life. 

It destroys your ability to trust someone, anyone-- to not hurt you. 
 

BIG APPLAUSE.

 (((BLUSH!!!))))
(Curtsy)

Preceja wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

That's not what bothers me. It's that fact that some people love John Watson so much that they are willing to sweep this under the rug and thereby invalidate the experiences of those who are the survivors of abuse-- in order to "Protect John Watson At All Costs". 

Sorry-- I got a little heavy. Hey, TFP may make all of this a moot point. I hope so!
 

You are really not unbiased.
The first and big mistake in my opinion is to use word abuse here. If we understand it as you have described and not every hit between two boys, every fight after which participants are having beer together and forget it while people here  would acuse one or another how hard hurt the other one and how irremediable consequencies is it going to have.

There is no way how to apply abuse on the relationship of John and Sherlock. 

It is funny how we are able to judge feelings and intentions from gestures and expressions of Martin and Benedict. How far we got based on only actors. It is clear how incredibly good they are. 

Serious question; do you think that if it's two men, abuse is not a word that should ever be used to describe a situation where one perpetrates violence against the other? To my mind, if the word abuse is a problem, then maybe assault is more appropriate? 

Preceja wrote:

The first and big mistake in my opinion is to use word abuse here. If we understand it as you have described and not every hit between two boys, every fight after which participants are having beer together and forget it while people here  would acuse one or another how hard hurt the other one and how irremediable consequencies is it going to have.

But can this really be cathegorised as a simple brawl between two men?

In the first place - one of them never hit back. And we knew he never would beforehand - because he never ever responded to the other´s violence with his own.

Second - it was not something light. John was kicking Sherlock into his torso, maybe even to the freshly healed surgical scar that shouldn´t be there, but which was placed on Sherlock by (oh, the irony!) John´s wife for the heinous crime of offering help to her. I know this is fiction, but still - people in real life were killed that way. It´s horrible to look at.

Preceja wrote:

Yes - from John's side not rational human reaction of average man in such circumstances. From Sherlock's side it was part of his plan , I do  not how much, at  least the beginning so he had to play along. He had to expect at least something . He was able to defend himself just decided not to as the best solution. 
But above all , it is clear that they two consider it no problem.

I know such people and they are still best friends, why not, it is just necessary to speak, forgive, be sure that both sides feel it the same way. Nobody is only good or bad , every good person can do something bad from time to time. 

 

So, basically-- if Sherlock, feeling put upon, finally beats and kicks John-- till he's bleeding and spitting blood (same as John beating Sherlock) , that would be fine? Just two guys roughhousing? Just trying to be clear.
 

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (January 12, 2017 11:57 pm)

This thread has been very interesting to follow.  I am new to this site, and I would like to commend everyone on posting such insightful, intelligent and respectful comments.  This is a wonderful fan forum! 
Second, I think it is a testament to the writers and actors that we all feel so strongly and passionate about these characters.  I am so glad I found this site to be able to discuss situations and characters with such depth of thought.

      I very much agree with Preceja's take on the scene in question.  It was horrible what John did to Sherlock but I still think that the scene works in this episode and situation, with some dramatic license of course.  I think the term "assault" does work better than "abuse." as was mentioned by RavenMorganLeigh.   I think the assault was necessary to this scene and episode, though maybe in retrospect could have been toned down a little.  I do not think this is just 2 guys in a fistfight and everything is forgotten.  It was definitely more serious than that. 
      What I do think is that it was necessary to show both men at their absolute lowest points.  Sherlock is destroying himself, allegedly to save John but I think he also feels immense guilt that he does not know how to deal with, and John has just hit the lowest possible emotional state he can be in, is extremely angry and frustrated and is beyond rational thought.  Beating up your best friend could obviously irreconcilably end a friendship.  But I think it could also make it stronger.  I don't excuse what either did, but I think this scene works and in a way it does show their humanity.    I would never suggest that someone stay in an abusive relationship but I just really don't see their relationship that way. 
      What I see is two people who see each other at their absolute worst and choose to forgive each other. They mutually chose to forgive and forget.  They needed to go through this hell to see what is really important to both of them and that is each other and their friendship. 
      Love is not always pretty.  To truly love someone, you need to accept both the very best and the very worst in that person and love that person anyway for all their characteristics.  I think John and Sherlock each chose to do that evidenced by their hug at the end.  I do not think their relationship will ever reach this low a point again.  I think John is truly repentant, even though he is not actually shown apologizing to Sherlock.  And I think Sherlock is sorry as well, but I cannot remember him apologizing for ruining himself with drugs either.  I think the apology is understood and unsaid between both of them.  I think that both of them will now support and champion each other as true friends from here out. 
     John's actions are hard to watch and should not be excused, but, like Preceja, I get it. I understand how and why it could happen this way.  I wish it hadn't, but as was also referenced in the episode, "It is what it is."  It happened and they found a way to still love each other and deepen their friendship as a result of an awful, awful act. 
      I think we should ultimately focus on the end result of the assault, not the assault itself.  Again, for me, I feel like they went through the worst thing they could possibly go through and came through stronger and with a deeper love for one another and a deeper friendship than before.  That is what I ultimately took from this episode. 

      I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone who has been exposed to any kind of real emotional or physical abuse.  No one should ever have to endure that and I am sure this scene was even more terrible if you have gone through something like that.  That is never okay. 
My comments are discussing only the specific situation portrayed by these characters. 
 

We appear to have strayed into the area of ifs and buts and maybes...
What happened was John gave Sherlock a beating and Sherlock took it...
They have both kind of explained why.
I suppose we have to try and accept it and move on, thy seem to have done so.
Yes, this is exactly what I said when Mary shot Sherlock.
To me, it seems the same sort of situation.
We seem to angst more than the characters do.
I guess that's TV for you.

Gosh, and here was me awaiting the usual telling off!