BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

besleybean · September 30, 2013 4:59 pm

But AS Ian alludes to.
Surely that's just part of peopel's misunderstanding of Sherlock.
Cos he doesn't go with women, they assume he's gay.
Hes' different.
John just gets dragged into this...but all will change next series.

sj4iy · September 30, 2013 5:04 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
If they had not wanted any ambivalence regarding the Sherlock-John relationship they could easily have avoided this.
Exactly. In my opinion (and I'm freely quoting someone from tumblr here) the fantasies about Johnlock "are being purposefully fed by the creators". Mark and Steven (and Ian and Amanda and whoever else from the production team) can say to this whatever they like really, the evidence is there in the episodes. They could just have left all those innuendos out (like I said before), the show would still be great, nothing would be missing, a bromance would still be there.

Here's the thing, though...what may seem like obvious innuendo to you may not seem that way at all to another person. I don't see any overt expressions of romance between the two men at all. Everything I see is a perfectly normal close male friendship. They don't do anything that is suggestive- they might make jokes about it, but it's nothing that the characters have done. If you want to tell me what you think are the obvious signs of sexual tension between the two characters in the show (and not other people's jokes about it), I will gladly listen and observe it for myself.

Last edited by sj4iy (September 30, 2013 5:05 pm)

besleybean · September 30, 2013 5:15 pm

There can be all the innuendo in the world.
Point is there is no relationship between them and isn't going to be.
As has been pointed out:
What other people think or say about them has no bearing on their actual status.
They do not act in a romantic way beacuse they are not in a relationship.They act as they are: closest friends.

sj4iy · September 30, 2013 5:23 pm

besleybean wrote:
There can be all the innuendo in the world.
Point is there is no relationship between them and isn't going to be.
As has been pointed out:
What other people think or say about them has no bearing on their actual status.
They do not act in a romantic way beacuse they are not in a relationship.They act as they are: closest friends.

That's how I feel.

Personally, I find it refreshing to have a great depicition of a heterosexual close male friendship. So often we see media depicting men as distant and superficial when it comes to friendship, because they are afraid of what people might think if men are close to each other. You can talk about cars or women, but god forbid you show affection for your best friend. This gender stereotyping is just as bad as what the media does to women, and I hate it.

SolarSystem · September 30, 2013 5:27 pm

besleybean wrote:
There can be all the innuendo in the world.
Point is there is no relationship between them and isn't going to be.
As has been pointed out:
What other people think or say about them has no bearing on their actual status.
They do not act in a romantic way beacuse they are not in a relationship.They act as they are: closest friends.

And that's all fine with me, believe me.
I never said (and I think that goes for most Johnlockers) that they are in a romantic relationship or ever will be. But the fact remains: the writers themselves opened the floodgates to Johnlock by writing what they did. Some things are ambiguous, at least to me. I could give several examples, but in the end that probably wouldn't do any good just because people are different and perceive a lot of things differently. To me a look, a facial expression, a gesture might imply something far more romantic than to you (or ten other people, for that matter).
Maybe if they had cast two actors who had less chemistry than Benedict and Martin have, all this would have been perceived very differently by a lot of people, too.

SusiGo · September 30, 2013 5:36 pm

I think we all know that they do not have a sexual/romantic relationship in the show. The question is why there are so many people whose imagination is stirred by what they see and hear in the show. Who are inspired to write slash fanfic and draw and paint often beautiful art. And if all this is caused in any way by the writing/acting/chemistry. My answer is yes. And it is all fine.

sj4iy · September 30, 2013 5:38 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
besleybean wrote:
There can be all the innuendo in the world.
Point is there is no relationship between them and isn't going to be.
As has been pointed out:
What other people think or say about them has no bearing on their actual status.
They do not act in a romantic way beacuse they are not in a relationship.They act as they are: closest friends.
And that's all fine with me, believe me.
I never said (and I think that goes for most Johnlockers) that they are in a romantic relationship or ever will be. But the fact remains: the writers themselves opened the floodgates to Johnlock by writing what they did. Some things are ambiguous, at least to me. I could give several examples, but in the end that probably wouldn't do any good just because people are different and perceive a lot of things differently. To me a look, a facial expression, a gesture might imply something far more romantic than to you (or ten other people, for that matter).
Maybe if they had cast two actors who had less chemistry than Benedict and Martin have, all this would have been perceived very differently by a lot of people, too.

If they had cast two people with less chemistry, the show would have failed. I don't see how the writers are to blame for NOT writing a homosexual relationship. They threw in a few jokes, but there isn't anything else. I'm fine with people writing, drawing and reading slash fics and art, but I think it's disingenuous to say that the writers are gaybaiting.

Last edited by sj4iy (September 30, 2013 5:39 pm)

besleybean · September 30, 2013 5:43 pm

The basic point is: fantasies and inspiration are fine...but don't confuse that with what actually is in the series.

SolarSystem · September 30, 2013 5:58 pm

sj4iy wrote:
I don't see how the writers are to blame for NOT writing a homosexual relationship. They threw in a few jokes, but there isn't anything else. I'm fine with people writing, drawing and reading slash fics and art, but I think it's disingenuous to say that the writers are gaybaiting.

I don't blame the writers for anything. They did not write a homosexual relationship and that's totally fine with me. But with their writing they undoubtedly did prompt the fantasies of a lot of viewers.
They can't let Mrs. Hudson say something like "There's another bedroom upstairs if you'll be needing two bedrooms", and expect the (whole) audience to completely ignore this and not go 'oh, why would she assume they'd only need one bedroom...?'. It's totally fine if people don't react to something like that and just continue watching unimpressed, but if other people do react to it, it's not really all that surprising. At least not to me.

Harriet · September 30, 2013 5:59 pm

They did not?

besleybean · September 30, 2013 6:01 pm

@Solar System.
She says it cos she thinks they're gay.
She's obviously assumed Sherlock was, as he doesn't have a young lady.
So when he brings a good looking guy home...she presumes! Particularly as she may have gathered he doesn't have friends!
But the joke is they are not gay.

Last edited by besleybean (September 30, 2013 8:23 pm)

besleybean · September 30, 2013 6:08 pm

Sorry, we cross posted.

SolarSystem · September 30, 2013 6:09 pm

They are not?
Sorry, really, I know why she's saying this, and I assume so do most fans. But that's exactly what's feeding people's fantasies. (And that doesn't mean that they actually think they are gay, people are just fantasizing about it.)

QuiteExtraordinary · September 30, 2013 6:15 pm

Well, so far obviously the people involved in creating the show don't even agree on Sherlock's sexuality. In contrast to Ian Hallard's statement, for example, Steven Moffat indicated (if I remember correctly) that Sherlock is interested in women. I'd say we're free to read into the show, as well as the ACD canon, whatever we want.

Jacco111 · September 30, 2013 8:24 pm

...With some restraints.

besleybean · September 30, 2013 8:28 pm

Sexulaity aside.
It is made clear there is no relationship or interest between Sherlock and John.
Once again, fantasy is fine. Just don't try and tell Mark and Steven what they wrote, or the actors what they played!

sj4iy · September 30, 2013 8:30 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
sj4iy wrote:
I don't see how the writers are to blame for NOT writing a homosexual relationship. They threw in a few jokes, but there isn't anything else. I'm fine with people writing, drawing and reading slash fics and art, but I think it's disingenuous to say that the writers are gaybaiting.
I don't blame the writers for anything. They did not write a homosexual relationship and that's totally fine with me. But with their writing they undoubtedly did prompt the fantasies of a lot of viewers.
They can't let Mrs. Hudson say something like "There's another bedroom upstairs if you'll be needing two bedrooms", and expect the (whole) audience to completely ignore this and not go 'oh, why would she assume they'd only need one bedroom...?'. It's totally fine if people don't react to something like that and just continue watching unimpressed, but if other people do react to it, it's not really all that surprising. At least not to me.

Mrs. Hudson doesn't know either of them very well at that point (a little about Sherlock, nothing about John). She doesn't know their relationship status- she's saying it as a way of letting them know that if they happen to be gay, she doesn't mind. It's a completely legitimate thing for a would-be landlord to say to people who are about to move in, and John is completely taken aback by it.

To me, it's obvious in the first episode that people seeing John with Sherlock are so shocked to see anyone at all hanging around Sherlock that they just assume it must be a romantic connection. Remember...we are seeing the people who know Sherlock, not John. And if you know someone that has never had a friend and is completely unreadable as far as sexuality goes, it doesn't take a leap of the imagination to suddenly assume that there must be more going on when he suddenly has a new acquaintance. However, they address the relationship part very quickly when Sherlock says "I'm married to my work" and with John saying to practically everyone "I'm not gay". Sherlock thinks that love and sex are "beneath him" and John is just interested in a heterosexual relationship.

SusiGo · September 30, 2013 8:34 pm

As for us telling the actors what they played - let's have a look at what Martin said they played:

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/tv/s129/sherlock/news/a320978/martin-freeman-sherlock-is-gayest-story-ever.html

besleybean · September 30, 2013 8:46 pm

I think he's quite clearly talking about 2 different things(and jokingly, too).
Yes it can be the gayest story.
But that's not the kind of love that he and Benedict are playing.
So funny how there's all this innuendo.
Yet John has girlfriends, says he's not gay and then (CANONICALLY) a wife.
Sherlock has nobody.
But somehow none of this matters....the writers just threw all of that in as a smoke screen and clearly Ian doesn't know what he's talking about.They're really in love with each other( rolls eyes).

Last edited by besleybean (September 30, 2013 8:47 pm)

NotYourHousekeeperDear · September 30, 2013 8:49 pm

Sherlock and John's relationship is not static. At the moment, it might be bromance, but would it really be terrible if it did develop into a romantic attachment? My personal belief is that it wouldn't that it would be totally believable, fasincating to see and quite revolutionary in terms of television.