BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » What is it with Sherlock and Irene?

besleybean · June 20, 2013 7:56 pm

I assumed that line was purely in recognition of it being a danger night for Sherlock lapsing back to his drug habit.

Elvina · June 20, 2013 8:23 pm

besleybean wrote:
I assumed that line was purely in recognition of it being a danger night for Sherlock lapsing back to his drug habit.

Yes but if Sherlock didn't care about Irene why would it be a danger night? Why would Mycroft warn John to stay close etc? It was obvious to them all Sherlock was acting out of character.

besleybean · June 20, 2013 8:26 pm

Oh I agree with the wider context, just that line I was referring to.

krusta80 · July 28, 2013 2:33 pm

I think that part of what makes this episode so great is that we finally get to see things in Sherlock that we haven't seen before: vulnerability, surprise, attraction, and trust. Both Irene and Sherlock take turns being vulnerable to one another, which inspires trust and mutual admiration... and which eventually leads to feelings of love.

besleybean · July 28, 2013 5:33 pm

Or at least mutual admiration!

Aujouret · August 6, 2013 6:03 pm

Eselin wrote:
I think Sherlock loved the challenge Adler brought, not specifically Adler herself.
She uses her body as a weapon, gaining the upperhand by manipulating reactions in some people's morst vunerable state (sexual need can bring someone's defenses down completely) then stands right back up and struts out in confidence
Sherlock is, obviously, drawn to a challenge, so when he finds 'The Woman', she takes him down, I think he's honestly having fun trying to figure her out and beat her.
When he is confronted with her loss, he has to stop for a second to understand what he has lost, and how is effected him differently than almost anyone else.
He was attached to the idea of someone he could mentally spar with, and try to get the upperhand.
I think. That probably sounds dumb.

I don't think it sounds dumb at all. I think it's all true.
I have been enjoying this forum so much.
Very interesting thoughts and opinions here.
I would also like to add my 2 cents.
I think Sherlock was surprised, intrigued, challenged and confused by Irene Adler.
He has always sought to repress feelings of infatuation, love and sex. They interfere with the thought processes in his "funny old head." Logic and intelligence are everything to Sherlock.
Here was a woman who was quite possibly his equal. In that way she was like Moriarty.
She brought something different into his life.
I don't think it was love.
Respect, I think. He respects so few people.
He also was trying to hide any regard for her from John and his brother.
Interesting.
I am not sure, but this one might be my favorite of the 6 episodes.
Irene intrigues me too.

Mary Me · August 6, 2013 6:09 pm

Seeing the challenge of "beating her" is definitely a huge part of what attracts Sherlock to her but remember that he saved her in the end, although he has already beaten her... There was obviously an emotional attachment too.
I'm a Sherene shipper so I see all the things the way I like them to see, so...

nicbooful · August 6, 2013 6:56 pm

I see Sherlock admiring her and intrigued by the challenge of beating her but I've never seen it as love. He could never fully trust her if they ever met again. She has proven what she is like as a person . She could've landed him in so much trouble just to get what she wanted....grrr.

Although she is very clever I don't see her as Sherlock's - or Moriarty's - equal either. If she was she wouldn't have needed to consult Moriarty in the 1st place or needed Sherlock to crack the code.

She is brilliant but not as brilliant as those two x

Mary Me · August 6, 2013 7:09 pm

But Sherlock doesn't see her "betrayal" as bad thing. It was a good strategic move in his eyes so that wouldn't prevent him from liking her or whatever it is. She's definitely not as brilliant as Sherlock or Moriarty but she doesn't have to be.
They actually do have a love story - though neither Sherlock nor Irene would call it that - but it's a love story with very little physical attraction. I would still consider Irene as Sherlock's 'love interest' in some way. She's the closest to that description. I know, I know. Different opinions on here.

the_dancing_woman · August 7, 2013 5:53 am

Mary Me wrote:
They actually do have a love story - though neither Sherlock nor Irene would call it that - but it's a love story with very little physical attraction. I would still consider Irene as Sherlock's 'love interest' in some way. She's the closest to that description. I know, I know. Different opinions on here.

Well, I think Irene Adler for Sherlock was a bit like looking into a mirror, they even look slightly similar (haircolour, eyecolour, skin complexion).
She was maybe not exactly as brilliant as Sherlock or Moriarty, but close enough! She nearly fooled Mycroft Holmes and that takes a lot. Yes, she got help from Moriarty, but it only worked because she was already sufficiently cunning on her own.
I think he really was attracted to her, as she was to him, just not in the way "common" people would be attracted to someone, call it brain-sex, it just takes place on an entirely different level.

Last edited by the_dancing_woman (August 7, 2013 6:00 am)

SherlocklivesinOH · February 15, 2014 8:44 pm

After watching HLV I was more confused by Sherlock's attitude to Irene...aren't there similarities between her MO and that of CAM (who Sherlock very much depises?)

He doesn't always hate his antagonists in an emotional way, granted. He solves crimes for fun; he's not always necessarily driven by moral outrage or "this person's doing a terrible thing and must be stopped."

But with CAM, he is. And he says it's because CAM "picks on people who are different." There's a similarity with Irene...she puts people in embarassing situations by playing on their...different tastes.

Plus, didn't she actually hurt or kill people, or at least threaten John? She may have killed the woman whose body was mistaken for hers. At the very least, she was in league with someone who strapped a bomb to John?

I've said that what bothers me most about the whole Mary situation is John continuing to love someone who hurt Sherlock...but I guess it went both ways.

I think the saving Irene could have actually been a form of winning: a final proof of his superiority. Or, he couldn't be smarter than her, so he had be better morally. Or, he saw the advantage of having someone so clever alive and indebted to him.

The HOW he saves her is more problematic...he shows up at just the right moment, without anyone from London knowing where he is...and he has only a sword of some kind. That was one of his more super-hero like moments.

In canon, we also have Holmes admiring Irene and hating Milverton...he definitely hates Milverton and what he says implies that he haes blackmail in general (Johnlockers, of course, love to theorize that Milverton is blackmailing Holmes over a gay love affair, which would have been illegal at the time. And some fans believe that Holmes really did kill Milverton and Watson's story is a cover-up. Holmes certainly regards the killing of Milverton as justified.)

But it's less of a contradiction because Irene by the end seems NOT to be a bad person. Although she supposedly threatened to embarass a king and ruin his politically-appropriate engagement by exposing their past affair, we only believe she's going to do this because the King himself says it. By the time we hear from Irene herself, she has moved on to "a better man." It begins to seem like the King was just paranoid (or that HE wanted the information she had to compromise her.)

That Irene is just an actress an an "'adventuress" - but she's more unusual for a woman of that time, I think, than BBC's Irene is for ours.

Irene and her new husband do announce they're fleeing to America...which implies some fear of what the King might to do her...maybe that's where the new series got that "damsel in distress" element from.

Last edited by SherlocklivesinOH (February 15, 2014 8:46 pm)

CaseyB · February 15, 2014 9:31 pm

I thought about that too - essentially they are both blackmailers, though Irene seems to focus more on a few key people in power, rather than accumulating pressure points about everyone she meets. Part of it may be how they treat Sherlock directly. Irene (once you get beyond the drugging/beating him bit) compliments him on how smart he is, whereas CAM continues his disgusting bodily fluids parade and essentially keeps showing Sherlock how he cannot outsmart him. Sherlock likes his ego stroked and hates to lose.

I think Sherlock sees Irene more as an intellectual equal, a worthy opponent, who he can go toe-to-toe with, similar to Moriarty. CAM is just a bottom feeder, not really of great intelligence, just preying on the weak.

I absolutely agree that Sherlock saving Irene was a form of winning to him - its always about one-upping with those two.

SherlocklivesinOH · February 16, 2014 8:06 pm

Eselin wrote: (sexual need can bring someone's defenses down completely)

This is why it backfired on Irene in the end! I am never crazy about female characters being shown to "wield power" through sex, because it makes THEM vulnerable to the men, too. Agatha Christie often did this with her female murder victims who were supposedly femme fatales - showed that the men they were involved with were exploiting THEM.

And I guess, I see that kind of female character's characterization as revolving too much around men, and giving men something the men really want, even if the female gets something out of it too.

CaseyB wrote "the drugging and beating him bit"
The drugging and beating Sherlock is something else that makes me go: wait, shouldn't that be a bigger deal, in terms of making Sherlock see her as an enemy? Unless he has...those kinds of...tastes?

Didn't she threaten John somehow, too?

I'm familiar with canon and with the Jeremy Brett series, and that's where my belief in "Johnlock" comes from. Holmes and Irene's contact is minimal in canon, but she's a cool character. (There is one "biographer" that theorizes that Holmes and Irene hooked up during his Hiatus...everyone forgot that she got married in the story where she appeared.) If my only knowledge of Sherlock Holmes were this series, perhaps I would be either a Sherene-er, or a Moll-ock-er.

As some fans have mentioned, I could defintely see Irene offering Sherlock a "reward" after he saved her...but I would more see him calling in the favor by having her help him fake his death, or hide out.

CarlPowers · February 19, 2014 7:23 am

I do like to think if Irene is out there, she would have helped him 'hide out' during his
hiatus.   If nothing else, she's out there, and there's the potential for them
to spar with each other again.

On the other hand, something in me wants still desperately to believe the 'rescue' scene
in ASIB was just a dream sequence, and indeed she is either dead or in a witness protection program.
What a perfect ending that would have been, Sherlock's pensive musing,   the 'Woman' admired,
but Irene out of the picture for good.   Sweet.

Although, I've also convinced myself that if she indeed was 'saved' by Sherlock at the end,
like a damsel in distress, (ugh) that so goes against her cool character that my spin on it
is:   Her rescue is actually her final one-up manipulation of Sherlock. She *gets him*
to rescue her.   Bravo.   She knows how to play the Holmes boys.   The next chess move is his.

Then again,   I fully acknowledge being manipulated by Steven Moffat, and I
am resigned to accept his twisted tale.   This episode is still my favorite.

Zatoichi · February 19, 2014 7:37 am

sj4iy wrote:
I think he really did fall in love (as "in love" as he ever will). He way his tone changed when he saw the present on the mantle, the way his hands were shaking when he opened it. And then, of course, the way he looked absolutely crushed when he was walking back to his apartment on New Year's Eve...he was in love. He didn't know what was going on on the plane, and he was full of revenge when he figured out the code...but then he couldn't bear for her to die, so he saved her.

Mycroft's statement of "My brother has the mind of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What can we deduce about his heart?" to me, shows that Sherlock is more innocent and naive than we like to think about him. Love really throws him off his game.

This is very much my opinion about what´s going on between Sherlock and Irene. Though I don´t think being in love actually makes him want to be with her, there is too much standing between them. As someone said before, "It´s complicated." (But Irene showing up naked in his mind palace in TSoT gave me the impression he quite enjoys meeting her there when he´s not busy.)

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:
As some fans have mentioned, I could defintely see Irene offering Sherlock a "reward" after he saved her...but I would more see him calling in the favor by having her help him fake his death, or hide out.

I like to think that Irene spoiled the little chances she might or might not have had by allying with Moriarty. In my head they had dinner after he rescued her, but Sherlock kept her at arm´s lenght. And I don´t think he ever called in a reward for her rescue, because he likes the upper hand it gives him and he likes to see himself as a knight who saved the (fallen) damsel in distress.

(I have to add I didn´t like the end sequence, we know from ASiP that Sherlock is under surveillance and him flying to Karachi unnoticed and fooling Mycroft although he thoroughly checked it is her this time (you would like to see a head after a beheading?) is VERY unlikely to say the least. All the slashed terrorists would probably also lead to questions..)

Last edited by Zatoichi (February 19, 2014 7:39 am)

besleybean · February 19, 2014 4:44 pm

I'm not convinced he did fool Mycroft.

CaseyB · February 19, 2014 5:15 pm

Zatoichi wrote:
(But Irene showing up naked in his mind palace in TSoT gave me the impression he quite enjoys meeting her there when he´s not busy.) .

I hadn't thought of that, but it does make sense. I rather like that.

I think Mycroft was convinced she was dead at least when he was talking to John. However, I do think its possible that at some point during his two years away, Mycroft would have become aware that she was alive.

SherlocklivesinOH · February 20, 2014 1:23 am

I like to think that Irene spoiled the little chances she might or might not have had by allying with Moriarty.

You mean, this kind of turned Sherlock against her, or made him not trust her? Moriarty threatened John, after all.

(I have to add I didn´t like the end sequence, we know from ASiP that Sherlock is under surveillance and him flying to Karachi unnoticed and fooling Mycroft although he thoroughly checked it is her this time (you would like to see a head after a beheading?) is VERY unlikely to say the least. All the slashed terrorists would probably also lead to questions..)

And NOBODY Sherlock associated with knew he had left the country? Plus, how did he get past all those terrorists or whoever they were? I know he was in disguise but he was still VERY outnumbered and everything.

AND, in a way, I don't understand why Irene was about to be beheaded. I know those kinds of villains will kill their own minions who fail...but Irene was let go by Sherlock and Mycroft, so it wasn't like she was going to turn other people in to save herself. She really would have been free to go back to doing...what she'd been doing...if her OWN people didn't capture her.

The cameo of Irene in the mind palace seemed like the thoughts of a...more typical...hetero male. Distracted by something (potentially) sexual when he's supposed to be thinking of something work-related or important or serious.

I'm a Johnlocker based on canon, and the Brett series. I don't know if I would be if this series was the extent of my knowledge of Sherlock Holmes.

besleybean · February 20, 2014 6:38 am

You think Canon and Brett are more Johnlocky than BBC Sherlock?
There's a novelty!

KeepersPrice · February 20, 2014 6:30 pm

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:
I have to add I didn´t like the end sequence, we know from ASiP that Sherlock is under surveillance and him flying to Karachi unnoticed and fooling Mycroft although he thoroughly checked it is her this time (you would like to see a head after a beheading?) is VERY unlikely to say the least. All the slashed terrorists would probably also lead to questions..)[/i]

And NOBODY Sherlock associated with knew he had left the country? Plus, how did he get past all those terrorists or whoever they were? I know he was in disguise but he was still VERY outnumbered and everything.

AND, in a way, I don't understand why Irene was about to be beheaded. I know those kinds of villains will kill their own minions who fail...but Irene was let go by Sherlock and Mycroft, so it wasn't like she was going to turn other people in to save herself. She really would have been free to go back to doing...what she'd been doing...if her OWN people didn't capture her.

The cameo of Irene in the mind palace seemed like the thoughts of a...more typical...hetero male. Distracted by something (potentially) sexual when he's supposed to be thinking of something work-related or important or serious.

I'm a Johnlocker based on canon, and the Brett series. I don't know if I would be if this series was the extent of my knowledge of Sherlock Holmes.

Sherlocklives, there are those of us who think there is a great deal of ambiguity in the rescue of Irene scene and that perhaps it wasn't real at all but just something Sherlock imagined doing. After all, just before that final scene we hear from Mycroft that Sherlock wanted to be a pirate when he was little. Romantic, dashing pirates in books and movies are known for daring-do and rescuing maidens. It makes me wonder how much of the rescue was in Sherlock's imagination vs. if it was real. Again, the ambiguity that this show is famous for. But since I don't like Irene, I like to think it was all in Sherlock's mind and that she is now quite officially dead.

I can see Johnlock in the Brett series - but have a harder time with canon. Way too much Victorian sensibility there. It was BBC Sherlock that turned me into a raving Johnlocker. I laughed at the gay innuendo in the first series and thought it was clever and charming, but then with Series 2 and all the jealousy factors in ASiB and John's collapse into grief on the sidewalk, etc. a more serious tone was struck and I was a goner. Not to mention how great they look together - so opposite in appearence and yet such wonderful chemistry.