BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Did the part at the end actually happen?

Sherlock Holmes · February 8, 2012 12:43 pm

The bit where she is abroad and Sherlock saves her from getting executed....did it actually happen, or was it just in her imagination, like what she wanted to happen?

kazza474 · February 9, 2012 4:38 am

OH it happened.
In the original stories, Irene Adler pops up again so it would have been a shame to kill her off and miss that opportunity.

As Mycroft says "Only Sherlock Holmes himself could have saved her" lucky he was around huh?

drummerchickSH · February 9, 2012 9:42 am

He did save her in the end he was her 'protection' and also irene will be back in series 3, so we will be seeing a lot of people who r ment to be dead in series 3 moffit so clever

kazza474 · February 9, 2012 9:48 am

How do you know she will be back in series 3?

Davina · February 13, 2012 12:12 pm

Remember Sherlock still has her phone and that he must have helped in the faking of her death for, as Mycroft says, it would take Sherlock Holmes to fool him.

kazza474 · February 17, 2012 3:40 am

Doesn't mean she'll be back in Series 3. I thought I'd missed a press release from Lara Pulver on it or something.
Not doubt she may be back sometime so who knows? They plan to make them as long as the actors are willing.

Last edited by kazza474 (February 17, 2012 3:41 am)

Nutek · May 29, 2012 12:50 am

As far as I know Irene Adler is Sherlock's girlfriend in the story. She will appear over and over and maybe might not die... But anyways this has been the best chapter along with the first one. Awesome series, but some of the chapters are kind of boring. I'm expecting for new episodes. A+ for BBC.

kazza474 · May 29, 2012 1:03 am

Irene is not Sherlock's girlfriend.
She doesn't die, nor did she in the original story & was only mentioned twice in other stories but never actually made an appearance in the stories.
So there is no real assurance that will shall see her back in BBC Sherlock any time soon. I guess it depends on whether Moftiss will 'sell out' and try to get extra mileage out of that character rather than moving forward to newer more exciting ones.

Sentimental Pulse · June 8, 2012 10:47 pm

kazza474 wrote:
Irene is not Sherlock's girlfriend.
She doesn't die, nor did she in the original story & was only mentioned twice in other stories but never actually made an appearance in the stories.
So there is no real assurance that will shall see her back in BBC Sherlock any time soon. I guess it depends on whether Moftiss will 'sell out' and try to get extra mileage out of that character rather than moving forward to newer more exciting ones.

Truly i do not know how you could have a character more exciting than Lara Pulver's Irene Adler. Anything else is sure to pale in comparison.

Last edited by Sentimental Pulse (June 8, 2012 10:48 pm)

KeepersPrice · July 6, 2012 2:00 pm

Why do people like Irene Adler? Is it because she's smart and beautiful to look at? IMO, the way she is portrayed in this series, she's on the wrong side of the moral divide to a horrifying degree. She ran with the Moriarty crowd and in the end she tried to sell out her own country for huge personal gain. If you want Sherlock to have a girlfriend, why someone like her?

SusiGo · July 6, 2012 2:12 pm

I don't know if people really like her. I guess they find her attractive because she is handsome and clever and proves to be a match for men like Sherlock and Mycroft. She doesn't rely on men to help her - maybe except for the very last scene. She has some brilliant scenes with Sherlock and proves to a constant challenge to him. From a moral point of view she is a criminal. Therefore I cannot imagine she could ever become Sherlock's girlfriend. Which leads me to a hypothetical question: Which qualities would be required in a woman to become his girlfriend?

Smoggy_London_Air · July 6, 2012 2:18 pm

I think a woman would have to be a mystery, literally, in order to be Sherlock's girlfriend. He's married to his work, after all, and he doesn't seem the type to have an extramarital affair.

Sentimental Pulse · July 6, 2012 2:20 pm

KeepersPrice wrote:
Why do people like Irene Adler? Is it because she's smart and beautiful to look at? IMO, the way she is portrayed in this series, she's on the wrong side of the moral divide to a horrifying degree. She ran with the Moriarty crowd and in the end she tried to sell out her own country for huge personal gain. If you want Sherlock to have a girlfriend, why someone like her?

Because romance with no conflict is boring. How many women out there bring the beauty, intelligence and challenge to Sherlock that she does? I don't think Sherlock would find too many matches on e-harmony. Sure she is on the wrong side of moral equation. But Sherlock has an iffy record in that regard also. Other than his small inner circle he only helps those who have the great fortune of being involved in some problem he finds worthy as a supreme intellectual challenge. He told us himself he is no angel.

KeepersPrice · July 6, 2012 5:09 pm

Well, Sherlock likes to say he is no angel, but to paraphrase JM (and also Gatiss on one of the commentaries), we all know that's not true. He is an angel - although one with a somewhat dirty face. I suppose the appeal of a "relationship" for him with Irene would involve constantly playing the game of trying to thwart her base ambitions and schemes - and enjoying the game while playing it. Her additional game with him, besides attempting to win the game, would involve seducing "the virgin" as an extra bit of excitment - the conflict being she never quite succeeds. Is this kind of spicey, conflicted, back and forth game all we can hope for in a male/female relationship for Sherlock? *Big Sigh* Possibly it is - but I don't have to like it, do I.

@ SusieGo - what qualities would be required in a woman to be his girfriend? Well, how about every quality John posesses - but female. Just not sure what she would actually look like though

KeepersPrice · July 6, 2012 6:22 pm

Oh - think I may have answered my own question about what SH's girlfriend might look like - obviously petite, blonde, and totally adorable

ancientsgate · July 16, 2012 12:46 pm

KeepersPrice wrote:
Why do people like Irene Adler? Is it because she's smart and beautiful to look at? IMO, the way she is portrayed in this series, she's on the wrong side of the moral divide to a horrifying degree. She ran with the Moriarty crowd and in the end she tried to sell out her own country for huge personal gain. If you want Sherlock to have a girlfriend, why someone like her?

Oh. I was hoping that was The Woman's fantasy there at the end, Sherlock saving her, blah, blah, and that she's gone. Like forever. Yucko. I didn't like her, don't ever want to see her again. To me, she was just a shippy distraction. I hope women play only a very peripheral role in the guys' lives on the show and that the show itself revolves mostly around unsolved murders, serial suicides, Bad Guys, and general mayhem for Sherlock and John to straighten out. KP, you make some good points-- The Woman wasn't exactly a nice person. And Sherlock can do better....

ancientsgate · July 16, 2012 12:48 pm

KeepersPrice wrote:
Oh - think I may have answered my own question about what SH's girlfriend might look like - obviously petite, blonde, and totally adorable

I don't think we call short men petite, but John is blond and totally adorable, so I'll give you that. *runs away laughing*

March 31, 2013 12:53 pm

I think the karachi adventure did actually happen.
1. It is not a dream sequence or a mind-palace scene.
2. Somebody filmed the scene.
3. Moffat clarified on the DVD that he wanted Sherlock to save Irene.

But I still have a question: Who filmed the scene?
It looks like a filmed scene with dropouts or errors arising in the transmission. It reminds me of the camera in 221b in TRF. There are dropouts, too.

When Sherlock reads through Irene's text messages he remembers the Karachi event and we get the videotaping. Did Sherlock do the recording on his own small wifi camera? Did he remember watching his own recorded film?
Is the small camera in 221b his own? Did he put it there to watch his own room? Maybe to catch Moriarty coming back?

beekeeper · March 31, 2013 1:18 pm

think it has to be real, just by dramatic convention.

I am in two minds about her. I think she's potentially a great character. She makes Sherlock grow up a bit. I think, personally, the implication is that Sherlock is no longer a virgin by the end, and that thats the real point of that Karachi scene. (he flies to Karachi, saves Irene-and then flies home again? The writers are teasing us in exactly the same way they are teasing us with the whole shipper malarky, by feeding these age old questions about Sherlock/John/Irene, lampshading them, then hinting both ways).

I'm in two minds really but in some ways, I like her because she highlights just how emotionally and sexually immature Sherlock is. She's too obvious and OTT. (Myroft says "In the end-are you really so obvious?") The only way it works for me is that really-she's so very obvious and OTT, she's a teenage boy's fantasy woman really and that's pretty much where Sherlock is emotionally-he's a teenage boy with zero experience of a healthy adult sexual relationship. There's certainly one of those ambiguous hints that the writers love that he's been looking at John's porn. There's no hint at all that John finds her impressive, let alone Mrs Hudson who dismisses her silly text alerts pretty nicely. And added to this, there is the suggestion that in all the scenes except the very last one she is acting in the way that she knows will get Sherlock best-that this isn't necessarily what she is really like but rather what he wants her to be like. So in that we are shown his ideal woman and that he kind of grows through that to save her at the end, hopefully maturing a bit in what he'd want from a relationship (christ, I do hope) I think she's pretty interesting.

Last edited by beekeeper (March 31, 2013 1:20 pm)

kaye · March 31, 2013 2:44 pm

Love your analyais beekeeper. But if the creators of Sherlock are using the original stories as their guide, Irene won't appear again. In the original stories she and Sherlock only appear together in one story, at the end of which she leaves for America with her husband, never to return. BTW - in the original stories Irene Adler is an American!

As for woman and Sherlock - in the original stories Sherlock expresses admiration for three women - one is Irene Adler. The second is Violet Hunter, a governess who comes to Sherlock with a problem. Sherlock complements Violet on her courage and her ability to solve issues in the case. John writes that he was hoping Sherlock would show some romantic interest in her, but after her case was solved Sherlock forgets all about her. The third woman I recall making an impression on Sherlock is the fiance of the man killed in 'The Lion's Mane'. I can't remember her name. She makes a brief apperance in the story - which was narrated by Sherlock - and he admires her person. So he is obvioulsy not above noting attractive qualities in women.

I have come across several references in various stories where Sherlock has told John (to paraphrase) 'If I were ever to marry, I would hope my wife would have more regard for me than the wife of the dead man had for him' (I believe this was in The Valley of Fear); and 'I have never loved a woman, but if I ever should..', and 'If I ever had a son...' etc. Making me believe that Sherlock at least thinks it would be possible for him, some time in the future, to marry and have children. Quite astounding when you think about it.

But in the end, Sherlock remains alone, unattached, and seemingly without a romantic or sexual past. It appeas the creators of Sherlock have no real intention of changing this narrative too much.

I do love Irene Adler - she is an amazing character. In the original story she is more compassionate and caring, not a criminal type, but certainly a sexual adventurer by the standards of the day - the affair with the King of Bohemia. The modern Irene Adler is sexually on the far side of things and consorting with criminals.

I find it interesting that,unlike in the original, her story is not tied up neatly (like going off to America with her husband), but is left open. One has to wonder what happend between them after Sherlock saved her. Did they spend any time together? Where did she go? Where is she now?I have to wonder why they did that. Yet I don't feel we will see her again. There are just too many wonderful stories in the orignial that the producers can use, that I don't see any new story lines coming.

Last edited by kaye (March 31, 2013 2:49 pm)