sj4iy wrote:

[
Those airbags inflate and deflate really quickly depending on the model (some large models only take just over a minute to inflate- yes, I looked it up).

How long it takes to inflate isnt the issue.  How long it takes to deflate is, and that's much longer.  But even if it was a minute, it's still 5 times too long.  This is a pic is 11 seconds after Sherlock hits the ground.  It's about 15 seconds after he falls off the roof.



This is as John is struck, obviously.  Sherlock could not have leapt straight down, fallen onto a giant airbag and had this huge clear area we see within 11 seconds.

  But here's the thing...who's watching Sherlock, really?  Moriarty says "his people", but John's assassin is watching John...

I quite agree, I've said this myself.  But he is watching John.  We know how long he had John's head in his scope.  John is going to Sherlock.  If there's a big ol' inflatable around, he's going to see it. 

Also, Shelrock puts on quite a show of distress on top of the roof when Moriarty dies.  Who is he doing this for?  For whoever is watching the roof. 

.  And why does Sherlock say all of that stuff to John, but then *gives him a clue*?  It means that someone is listening...but who?

I don't know what you are referring to, here.

As far as the ball in the armpit theory goes...Moffat himself LOVES magic.  He's even said so.  Sherlock says to John "It's a trick, just a magic trick" (paraphrased)...well, the ball-under-the-armpit is a trick magicians use to trick people into thinking their heart has stopped.  And why else would Sherlock pocket the ball on his way to meet Moriarty (which you can see in slow motion on blu-ray like I have)?  He takes it with him for a reason...and that reason would be to trick John long enough for John to think that he's really dead.
 

Yes, I know the theory.  I also know Moffat would have thought out his red herrings beforehand.  There's also the fact that Moffat said she'd "read all the theories" (standard Moffat arrogance, but then, he must have read the rubber ball theory it was one of the first and a standard) and he says no one has it right.

Of course, Jo Rowling used to just lie when we figured stuff out on the forum and say things that were not factual,  so I have no reason to trust Moffat, I mean if she's lie, why wouldn't he?

But as I have said before, it doesn't matter. Nothing he comes up with will make sense with what we have seen on screen.  The giant inflatable catch-all, not possible.  No time.  And the fact is, we do see him hit the sidewalk.  We see someone/something hit it. Not an inflatable anything, that camera is at sidewalk level and there is no time in the fall to allow for landing on something else and then moving to the sidewalk. The time between the last frame of Sherlock in the air and entering frame to land on the sidewalk is a split-second.

Magicians use misdirection.  No matter what trick is used it's still a trick.

Last edited by MysteriaSleuthbedder (July 5, 2013 10:44 pm)

MysteriaSleuthbedder wrote:

sj4iy wrote:

[
Those airbags inflate and deflate really quickly depending on the model (some large models only take just over a minute to inflate- yes, I looked it up).

How long it takes to inflate isnt the issue.  How long it takes to deflate is, and that's much longer.  But even if it was a minute, it's still 5 times too long.  This is a pic is 11 seconds after Sherlock hits the ground.  It's about 15 seconds after he falls off the roof.

This is as John is struck, obviously.  Sherlock could not have leapt straight down, fallen onto a giant airbag and had this huge clear area we see within 11 seconds.

  But here's the thing...who's watching Sherlock, really?  Moriarty says "his people", but John's assassin is watching John...

I quite agree, I've said this myself.  But he is watching John.  We know how long he had John's head in his scope.  John is going to Sherlock.  If there's a big ol' inflatable around, he's going to see it. 

Also, Shelrock puts on quite a show of distress on top of the roof when Moriarty dies.  Who is he doing this for?  For whoever is watching the roof. 

.  And why does Sherlock say all of that stuff to John, but then *gives him a clue*?  It means that someone is listening...but who?

I don't know what you are referring to, here.

As far as the ball in the armpit theory goes...Moffat himself LOVES magic.  He's even said so.  Sherlock says to John "It's a trick, just a magic trick" (paraphrased)...well, the ball-under-the-armpit is a trick magicians use to trick people into thinking their heart has stopped.  And why else would Sherlock pocket the ball on his way to meet Moriarty (which you can see in slow motion on blu-ray like I have)?  He takes it with him for a reason...and that reason would be to trick John long enough for John to think that he's really dead.
 

Yes, I know the theory.  I also know Moffat would have thought out his red herrings beforehand.  There's also the fact that Moffat said she'd "read all the theories" (standard Moffat arrogance, but then, he must have read the rubber ball theory it was one of the first and a standard) and he says no one has it right.

Of course, Jo Rowling used to just lie when we figured stuff out on the forum and say things that were not factual,  so I have no reason to trust Moffat, I mean if she's lie, why wouldn't he?

But as I have said before, it doesn't matter. Nothing he comes up with will make sense with what we have seen on screen.  The giant inflatable catch-all, not possible.  No time.  And the fact is, we do see him hit the sidewalk.  We see someone/something hit it. Not an inflatable anything, that camera is at sidewalk level and there is no time in the fall to allow for landing on something else and then moving to the sidewalk. The time between the last frame of Sherlock in the air and entering frame to land on the sidewalk is a split-second.

Magicians use misdirection.  No matter what trick is used it's still a trick.

We don't see him hit the ground- we see a bit of his coat and hear a "thump".  That's not seeing him hit the pavement.  And I also said that there's another body dressed as Sherlock on the pavement until John is knocked down, giving Sherlock time to get into position.  The bag is the only thing that fits all of the evidence, and it would work as long as Sherlock isn't being watched in the right direction- and we don't know who is watching or listening to Sherlock, if anyone.  If they run the bag off from the scene on the other side of the building that John is running around, then he would never see it.  I don't know how they get rid of it...maybe they run it inside a building of some sort.  Sherlock was on the roof...then he was on the ground.  There's nothing suggesting that there was anything or anyone else on that roof pretending to be Sherlock.  No evidence at all.  There is plenty of evidence showing that he was the one on the roof (the pan up; the fact that he invites Moriarty on the roof; the fact that we see him flailing his arms and legs on the way down, something a dead person couldn't do; the fact that Benedict Cumberbatch himself did the stunts).  In order to survive the fall, he had to land on something...and the only thing that would be reliable would be an airbag.

And Moffat didn't say the magic thing in connection with Sherlock...it was in a youtube interview that he did with his son.  But he's shown throughout his work that he likes smoke and mirrors, and often uses it in the tv shows he writes.  It's the only way that John could have not felt Sherlock's pulse in his wrist.  Sherlock wouldn't take poison, because it's too unpredictable and he needed a clear mind to pull of his stunt.  So ball it is.

Last edited by sj4iy (July 5, 2013 11:27 pm)

Not sure what your actual theory is- would love to hear it.  Not quoting because it's too long:

1. We don't see him "fall" any more than 3 inches there.  I see nothing suggesting that is actually him hitting the ground from any real height.

2. There IS actually evidence of an airbag.  Of course, I can't actually show it to you, because of spoilers, but even before that, I knew that he had used something to fall on.

3. While Sherlock is talking on the roof, another body is dragged out, dressed as Sherlock, and laid on the sidewalk, blood added.  Sherlock jumps, the people help him and they all run, carrying the airbag, in the direction opposite John.  Just as John rounds the corner, he sees what he THINKS is Sherlock's body lying on the pavement (although in the wrong direction).  When he's knocked down, the real Sherlock runs back into place and lays down as the other body is dragged away again.  The crowd gathers around.

4. They do run the airbag away.  Again, we only hear a thump, and see a body fall all of a few inches from the ground, very close-up.  We can't see any details of any sort.

5. Sherlock doesn't need to risk his life anymore than he already does.  He's not going to jump 5 stories from a building without something to jump onto, because you can't survive that kind of fall without major trauma.  He doesn't need to inject himself with any sort of poison when a simple ball will do.  It's unpredictable and unnecessary.  He needed Molly to help set everything up, and to help fake his death papers afterwards.  She's a forensic doctor, that's what she does.  I seriously doubt the guy shaking Sherlock's arm is medically trained at all because the last thing you would do to a critically injured person with obvious head trauma and potential spine trauma is shake the guy.  He's there to keep John from taking Sherlock's carotid pulse.  John saw Sherlock for all of 5 seconds before they carted him off, he was in shock and he had just been run over with a bike.  He wasn't looking at his life signs...Sherlock just had to hold his breath or take shallow breaths until he was inside.  After that, I don't know what happens, other than Molly fixed things somehow.

6. Sherlock figured out who the real assassins are, where the are and who is watching or listening to his conversation with Moriarty on the roof.  Otherwise, he could have never pulled off his plan, whatever it was.  So we know that, taking that into account, he is confident that "Moriarty's people" can't see his trick.  Who are Moriarty's people?  I don't know.  All I know is that the assassins are not who we think they are, and that Mycroft knows more than he's letting on about them.

Last edited by sj4iy (July 6, 2013 2:03 am)

MysteriaSleuthbedder wrote:

sj4iy wrote:

We don't see him hit the ground- we see a bit of his coat and hear a "thump".  That's not seeing him hit the pavement.

I got carpal index finger getting these shots:


That brown stuff at the bottom of the screen is hair.  To it's right is his hand and sleeve.You can see his elbow joint, the bottom of his coat still airborn from the velocity of the fall.  We see him hit the sidewalk, headfirst.

The next shot I was able to get is this one, split second later, maybe a quarter second:


That's the body flattening.  It has a bit of recoil, as I recall, and then goes still. Hair at right bottom, you can see the heel of the shoe at far left, just to get oriented.   There are three trees.  At least.

And I also said that there's another body dressed as Sherlock on the pavement until John is knocked down, giving Sherlock time to get into position.

Sorry, I seem to have missed a step here.  Where would Sherlock be getting in position from? If he falls straight down and hits the sidewalk, as we see he does, if there is no airbag, as we see there is not and cannot be in the time between the last falling shot and this one, where is Sherlock in the picture where John sees the impact point with no airbag?  That's a pretty wide field.

 

The bag is the only thing that fits all of the evidence

It doesn't fit any evidence because we have no evidence it ever existed.  The evidence we do have in front of our eyes, shows no indication whatsoever of any device, and does clearly show someone or something humanlike hitting the sidewalk with force a split-second after we see Sherlock's falling body.  Those are facts.

A falling body is going about 75mph here, iirc (and I could be off), but he hits the sidewalk with his head.  First. No one is getting up and walking away from that.  If by a miracle they would survive, they aren't walking around a graveyard anytime soon.  Or thinking.

If they run the bag off from the scene on the other side of the building that John is running around, then he would never see it.  I don't know how they get rid of it...maybe they run it inside a building of some sort.

11 seconds. They didn't run it anyplace.  There's no evidence it ever existed. We see the head impact the sidewalk.  There was no bag.

Sherlock was on the roof...then he was on the ground.  There's nothing suggesting that there was anything or anyone else on that roof pretending to be Sherlock.  No evidence at all.

That's as much evidence as you have for your bag.  And I disagree.  I don't make gifs, but I could post a series of shots of every single time we see that silhouette from John's POV and show it is completely stationary.  I can also post a large number of pictures showing Sherlock moved around all the time. 

I have always said Sherlock was on the roof.  I have proved we have a recognizable Sherlock jumping from a place that is not what John is looking at.  I also showed an apparent Sherlock falling from the spot John was looking at.  Those shots are in the episode.  The evidence, the actual we can see it with our eyes evidence, proves there are two Sherlocks.  The one we know and whatever John is looking at.

; the fact that Benedict Cumberbatch himself did the stunts).

As did his stunt double.  And, information from off set is not evidence.  What happened onscreen is evidence because that's the world we deal with.  The one in which botulism has special properties it doesn't have in our universe.

  But he's shown throughout his work that he likes smoke and mirrors, and often uses it in the tv shows he writes.

Oh, I quite agree about the mirror.  In fact, I suggested the use of a mirror in this thread to explain how Sherlock could see John and talk on the mobile while he was not visible to John.  It dovetails with the shot at the beginning where Sherlock and John see each other in the mirror before the trial.  That's another thing Moffat does, foreshadow. 

It's the only way that John could have not felt Sherlock's pulse in his wrist.

No, it isn't.  I already gave one alternate theory in the post I have linked before.  Here is an excerpt from this post: The Reichenbach Evidence: Surviving the Fall.

"Why does Sherlock need Molly if she's not supplying dead bodies to convince Dr. Watson Sherlock  Holmes is dead?


Why is Sherlock afraid he is going to die? Starting at the end of "A Scandal in Belgravia," (The Reichenbach Fall 1) Mycroft and Sherlock have been planning Moriarty's downfall.

But James must feel he is controlling all the action. And while Sherlock must assume his death will be the ultimate goal of Moriarty's plan, somehow Sherlock has to manipulate the result. He already knows he'll have to appear to be dead and convince John of that, as well as Moriarty or his people.

This is why he needs Molly. Molly is a doctor. At some point, Sherlock knows he has to be very convincingly dead. Perhaps even literally dead. He will need someone whom he can trust implicitly to stop his heart and bring him back to life. Little rubber balls need not apply. Sherlock must fool a doctor who is a combat veteran, up close, touching, and in a few seconds. It has to be his own hand; vital signs and pupillary response must be absent. There will be only 8 minutes for them to "kill" Sherlock, get John to believe he is dead, get him inside to Molly, and revive him before brain damage sets in."

Sherlock wouldn't take poison, because it's too unpredictable and he needed a clear mind to pull of his stunt.  So ball it is.

"Sherlock was afarid he was going to die when he approached Molly.  He needed her.  Not just anyone.  Her.  Why? Also from the post link:

John sees a body where he expects it to be for a second, gets slammed to the ground by the biker and the phone in the red booth rings.   We all know who can make a phone ring in a specific phone booth at an exact moment.  The phone rings as long as John is down, only a few seconds, but long enough to remove the body, for Sherlock to dive for the sidewalk and for the apparently moronic  boy-doctor, who thinks shaking a person who has fallen from a height and probably has spinal cord damage is a dandy idea, to inject Sherlock through his coat.

Sherlock forum theorists have suggested that the doctor has his finger on Sherlock's carotid to keep John from feeling it as only his right wrist would be without pulse in the rubber ball hypothesis. This makes sense.

Or:

Would he be massaging the injection site and moving the body to get the drug into his system as quickly as possible? Is he feeling the carotid for the moment Sherlock's heart stops? Are they keeping John from the body until that happens?

No wonder Sherlock told Molly he thought he was going to die."



And, we've seen that injection through the coat trick before:



Once Sherlock is on the ground, he doesn't have to be clever at all.  Just dead.  He needs other people to be clever, and he needs a clever person who loves him to make sure he comes back.

Sherlock perhaps, has a lot more repect for John's medical abilities than anyone else.  Sherlock's eyes need to be open, because they would be.  His pupils need to be fixed. His respiration needs to be zero. John was a soldier, he killed people.  If John throws himself on the body and lifts the lid of an eye a conscious Sherlock would have to keep closed, he will see he is alive. It's the open eyes that are the giveaway.

I believe Sherlock did, indeed, die for his friends. Albeit briefly.

Just when you say that Sherlock was actually dead (his heart stopped beating) for a few moments when John's taking his pulse, he went to an awful lot of trouble to appear dead when John inspects him; and yet, those medics that were on the scene were qutie obviously not real medics, or at least, they did not follow standard procedure. Surely, if Sherlock went to all that trouble to convince John that he had no pulse, he would at least make sure that the 'medics' did the 'right procedure'. As you say, John's an army doctor, he would know what is the right thing for medics to do for someone who's suffered a traumatic injury. Yes, John wasn't in a clear state of mind, and obviously didn't notice, but if he thought about it, and replayed things in his head, he would. Granted, John might not want to think about it, and avoid going over the incident, but Sherlock can't rely on John doing that. I'm sorry if I'm not making much sense, it's hard to explain!

sj4iy wrote:

Not sure what your actual theory is- would love to hear it.

  Then use the link I posted numerous times and read it. 

Your scenario doesn't work simply because there is no time.  It's impossible in the time we see and can measure by watching the episode for what you describe to happen.  It's simply not possible.

There is no evidence of air bag at all.  Obviously setlock is not a spoiler here, I don't think people are so naive they think actors and stuntpeople fall onto the ground without safety measures. It's also not evidence of anything.  Whatever actors have or don't has little if anything to do with what characters have. Actors have blanks and dummy bullets.  Characters throw lead.

I don't know where this information comes from, but if what you say is correct, then it proves what I've said over and over: no explanation will fit what we have seen on screen. Classic Moffat.  I would like to know where your information comes from, perhaps you have a link?

sj4iy wrote:

There is an explanation, and it It makes perfect sense to me...but then again, I said that I already thought of that before I saw any of it, so what I saw fit exactly with what I thought.  The stuff that I posted is all over the place, but most of it was gathered during the filming of episode 1.  There are hundreds of pictures on zimbio.com, and of course, there are videos people took (those are scattered and I had seen them on tumblr), which involves the airbag.

 

So you don't don't have any links or pictures to support what you posted here, in the thread?

Last edited by MysteriaSleuthbedder (July 7, 2013 2:00 am)

sj4iy wrote:

Yes, I sent you a message with the links a while ago.  I was on my mobile earlier, and couldn't get to my links before.

Thank you for the links. The video in the first one did not load. The second one supports my version of events.

EDITED:

In order to protect people who are compelled to read spoilery posts even after very large warnings, I, too, have removed content.  I have moved it to this post where anyone can see the pics and draw their own conclusions.

It is, as always, my contention that the setlock proves nothing either way in this discussion.

Last edited by MysteriaSleuthbedder (July 7, 2013 11:09 am)

I am unsubscribing to this thread. Too many outright spoilers and skirting-around-spoilers comments. It makes me nervous to be here, but that's not anybody's fault, just what's going on with me. And it's okay, because IMO this Reichenbach theory thing has been rehashed to death for well over a year now. So bye-bye to this thread, see ya over on some others.

Last edited by ancientsgate (July 7, 2013 4:18 am)

ancientsgate wrote:

I watch the show for fun, so I could never watch one scene 100 times and try to pick it apart-- to me, my opinion only, that's not fun.

Yes! Some people like it, but I just can't!! I love the sequence, the development of that episode and I don't want to watch it in pieces. All we can do is guess anyway.