Caroll wrote:

sherlockian111 wrote:

Caroll wrote:

At the very first time I watched Scandal I had the same thought, but I think I got used to the idea then haha.
The reason I didn't put away the theory that he really falls and lands is exactly because nobody seems to believe it's possible, but we're talking about Sherlock here! Oddly enough I've seen - besides the "miracles" that seldom happen - some things 1. a person healthy/athletic and young has more chance of survival, 2. relaxing and bending the knees help, 3. land on the feet drives a leap, it's a chance for the person to protect the head and land sideway (which "could" explain why he was in a different position). John couldn't see the complete fall and shouldn't see S was manipulating the land. And I still need to think of everything else.
But I'll come back to reality now, ok?

But then why were the paramedics fake? Surely, if that were the case, it would have made more sense to have real paramedics, in case something went wrong
 

I imagine he wouldn't even take the risk if something could go wrong! He's the one who says that is "prepared to anything" and "prepared to do what ordinary people wouldn't do". Of course injuries would be expected if that were the case.

Yeah, I can't really imagine Sherlock doing something which could very well put him in a wheel chair (and that is not even the worst case scenario). This is Sherlock after all 

MysteriaSleuthbedder wrote:

It takes about 2-2.5 seconds to fall that far.  I don't think anyone would be able to tell the difference between a body and dummy in that time.  After that, the scene was protected from view and Sherlock can have taken the place of the dummy. What John was looking at on the roof, wasn't a living person, IMO.  It never moves.

 

And so they spent several days with Benedict suspended on cables up there and then a bunch of time getting him to jump off the roof into an airbag (and yes, it was really Ben, he was very open about it in interviews, talking about what it was like up there and during the fall, what they had to do to keep him safe and make it look real)-- they did all that so we'd be convinced that it was a dummy standing up there and then falling while waving his arms and legs all around? Pretty sophisticated dummy. Especially the dummy lying on the street with Ben's face, Sherlock's warm arm that John grabbed onto, his staring eyes, etc. C'mon. Whatever will be revealed to us in ep 3.1, it won't be that that was a dummy, IMO.

And he did move up there on the roof's edge. Pointing at John, throwing down his phone, spreading his arms and jumping. 

 

MysteriaSleuthbedder wrote:

ancientsgate wrote:

MysteriaSleuthbedder wrote:

What John was looking at on the roof, wasn't a living person, IMO.  It never moves.

 

And so they spent several days with Benedict suspended on cables up there and then a bunch of time getting him to jump off the roof into an airbag (and yes, it was really Ben, he was very open about it in interviews, talking about what it was like up there and during the fall, what they had to do to keep him safe and make it look real)-- they did all that so we'd be convinced that it was a dummy standing up there and then falling while waving his arms and legs all around? Pretty sophisticated dummy. Especially the dummy lying on the street with Ben's face, Sherlock's warm arm that John grabbed onto, his staring eyes, etc. C'mon. Whatever will be revealed to us in ep 3.1, it won't be that that was a dummy, IMO.

And he did move up there on the roof's edge. Pointing at John, throwing down his phone, spreading his arms and jumping. 

 

I never said Sherlock wasn't on a roof.  I never said Sherlock didn't jump from a roof. I said:

What John was looking at on the roof, wasn't a living person, IMO.  It never moves.

And it doesn't. Not any time we see him from John's point of view. The coat blows around, the hair does, too. But the stance is always exactly the same, the arms and head do not move. Ever.

The only time we see Sherlock move and speak and so forth, we are only looking at Sherlock. The one time we have Sherlock and John in the same frame from the roof position, is before John actually sees Sherlock. Then he is told to turn around and go back the way he came.

Now, as you look at the roof from John's position in the photo, the actual living Sherlock is somewhere to John's right, on a roof, able to see John, but unseen by him. John is looking at a dummy of some sort. I have no thoughts as to whether it is the one from the flat.

You might find this interesting, How Sherlock Survives the Fall.

BTW, if you wish to discuss this with me, I'd appreciate less sarcasm.  Otherwise, I'm afraid you'll have to chat with someone else.

But we do see him jump though, and when he's falling, he is moving around

MysteriaSleuthbedder wrote:

sherlockian111 wrote:

But we do see him jump though, and when he's falling, he is moving around

 How Sherlock Survives the Fall. You can scroll down to "How Sherlock Survives the Fall."

As I said above:

I never said Sherlock wasn't on a roof.  I never said Sherlock didn't jump from a roof.

So, of course we see him jump. But John didn't see him jump. John saw something pushed, released or whatever. There are three separate sequences of Sherlock falling that are shown in the episode.

That's possible, but why would Sherlock bother to jump off a roof in the first place? Why wouldn't he just find a place to hide when the time comes and then come out and play dead?

sherlockian111 wrote:

That's possible, but why would Sherlock bother to jump off a roof in the first place? Why wouldn't he just find a place to hide when the time comes and then come out and play dead?

He might have, I think, if he'd had time.  But John shows up just a few minutes after Moriarty kills himself. So, I don't think there's time.  He has to jump because of the timing.  He has to get to the sidewalk in almost the same time as the falling whatever does.  Benedict Cumberbatch said he fell, or jumped, onto another roof about four feet below his position.  I think Sherlock did, also.

In the link I posted in practically every answer, they will see the trees in the B.G. of the scene.


  I think he works his way down the building, possibly blocked by or even using the trees at the end.   This works well in terms of the Canon, where Holmes climbs his way up from ledge to ledge.  Sherlock can be coming down an "urban canyon" from "ledge to ledge."  If Chinese acrobats can do it, our Sherlock can.

Last edited by MysteriaSleuthbedder (July 4, 2013 2:00 am)

MysteriaSleuthbedder wrote:

Michele wrote:

How can we see something different to John in that scene?

Well, the simple answer is: Moffat wrote it that way.  We never see John watching the fall with Sherlock in the frame.  It's a perfectly easy shot to set up, but we never see it.  We see John looking with shock at something, and then we see a close shot of the falling Sherlock.  It doesn't mean what John is looking at is what we cut to.  Though, I do believe a few of those shots will turn out to bethe fake.

They can't show us him jumping and flailing about then just swap it out to a dummy next time. That feels like a huge kick in the intellectial privates. I am absolutely 100% sure that it is real life Sherlock jumping off that roof. I also feel like it's real Sherlock on the ground but that is definately up for debate. I don't really think that the mask theories hold much water, feels a bit Scooby Doo for me.

Seriously, I wish people would just go look at the link.  I swear there are no viruses or smutty pictures and it's not that long.. The first thing established is: John picks up Sherlock's hand.  At least, he picks up Benedict Cumberbatch's hand for sure.

One more time:How Sherlock Survives the Fall

And also John does see him jump.

We don't know what John sees.  We do not see John and the fall in the same frame.  We see John looking up, and then we see Sherlock fall from behind.

He doesn't see anyone pushing or a dummy. He was fully aware of what was happening around him (watching Sherlock) until he gets hit by the cyclist.

Well, the thing about a magic trick is, you don't see who's making it work.  "Sherlock" is up on a wall, remember.  So it's easy for someone to be crouched behind it, ready to knock over the dummy or whatever without John seeing.

I'll read the link but first does it have any spoilers? I'm on a strickly spoiler free diet at the moment.

But WE see Sherlock jump. The writers are smart and wouldn't show us alive Sherlock falling then say 'oh ignore that, that didn't happen'. Thus alive real Sherlock jumped off the roof (whether it was when John watched or before I guess you can debate). Waving arms and all. So why would he jump then have a dummy thrown off the roof for John to see?

MysteriaSleuthbedder wrote:

  .....BTW, if you wish to discuss this with me, I'd appreciate less sarcasm.  Otherwise, I'm afraid you'll have to chat with someone else.

Sorry, this has been hashed over so many times, I fear I've become jaded about it. At this point, I'm just anxious to see ep 3.1 so this long-lived mystery will finally be explained. I believe that it was  just what it appeared to be--   Sherlock stood there on the edge of the roof, Sherlock fell, Sherlock hit the deck, John grabbed on to Sherlock's wrist looking for a pulse, Sherlock was loaded onto the stretcher and taken away. Now HOW that all happened and how he survived and how in the world it looked so real to John at the time, that's what still has us talking about it well over a year since it first aired.

Michele wrote:

So I've had a read and overall think its a good theory. However I have a few comments.
- If you match up landmarks from the shots of both Sherlock and John talking you can tell that it is Sherlock on the roof. Tall grey building behind, Old Bailey to the left. To me this proves that it is Sherlock on the roof because you can see these landmarks while he is talking to John, despite the camera shots.

Thanks for looking at the link. 

One of the constant issues with this is that we have "producer error."  Moffat said he filmed the scenes on at least two different rooftaops.  Now, what we see behind Shelock is impossible if we compared it to the panoramic shot when he first entered the roof.  Also, we see Sherlock fall twice, in two different locations. (I'll do pics tomorrow, I've been up all night writing, sorry.)  We also see a listening device in John's ear right after Sherlock jumps.  But I doubt we were supposed to seee it, it was part of production.

- A lot (most) theories have either Mycroft's team or the homeless network as the people on the ground. My main concern with this is that would Sherlock really trust all these people not to say anything?

They are all Mycroft's people afaic.  Mycroft and Sherlock have been planning this since the end of Baskerville. The Holmes Boys Stalking Moriarty  It was all planned. Sherlock brings Molly in at the last minute when he will not trust his life to some random doctor Mycroft supplies.  (IMO, of course.)

-The tree theory is nice but not particularly practical. The trees are further down the street to provide cover and are no way tall enough for Sherlock to just jump into.

Sherlock was also further down the street.  But I never thought he'd leap into them from the roof.  Rather, that he worked his way down to them and used them for cover at the final part of the descent.

- I didn't notice that the phone rang so guess that could very well be important (and enough of an excuse for me to have to rewatch it again!)

Or, we can just do this:

- Regarding it being a dead body or dummy on the roof because it doesn't move if you watch it back very carefully you can see as John steps back after he tries to run around the building and Sherlock stops him with his hand raised that the figure on the roof also has his arm outstretched just like Sherlock.

Yeah, I've looked at that, too.  It isn't stretched out just like Sherlock's though, his is much higher.  You can account for it in the change of viewing angle when John moves his position.  When you move back to that exact spot Shelrock insists John stands in, the angle puts the arm back in the exact same position it's been all along. I have all the pictures from the sequence.

- Having rewatched it when John screams 'Sherlock' it falls perfectly to seconds after Sherlock has thrown his phone. A logical thing to do if your friend threw down the only way to communicate with them - scream their name to try and stop them.

You are quite correct.  Three seconds elapse between the time he drops the phone and John screams.  Perfect reaction timing.

- As I've said as Sherlock falls we see him waving his arms and legs so it can't be a dead body. Yes maybe that isn't the jump John sees but then why would Sherlock jump off then have a dummy thrown behind him?

The dummy goes off at the location John sees him.  She;lock goes off at the other end of the roof.  I'll post pics tomorrow.  There are THREE seperate sequnces of Sherlock falling that have been intercut.  Or at least that follow one another.  And, they keep starting back at the top.  Editing error? 

Firstly it doesn't make sense because he could have just waited on the ground the whole time

He didn't have time between Moriarty killing himself and John showing up to get to the ground.  And, there is a wndow of time, when John has his back turned, that the switch was  made between real and fake Sherlcok.  He had to be there in case John suddenly turned around.

And secondly if there are two jumps there is a risk that someone - namely one of Moriarty's men - would see and the plan ruined.

That is a risk.  But, having been planning this so long. Mycroft will be sure that only his people are on the street and that access to the near buildings is correctly controlled.  This is also where the trees come in, providing cover at the other end of the roof.  Also, the sniper will have his scope trained on John, as we saw.  

Sherlock is on the roof talking to John.  Sherlock can see John from his position on the roof.  It's what John is seeing that is the question.

Last edited by MysteriaSleuthbedder (July 4, 2013 10:04 am)

I think we may just have to come to the old adage of 'let's agree to disagree'.
I'm living in constant fear of having it spoilt for me so I think it might be best for me to stop digging until the episode is released. This might have to be me for a while...



You may very well be right but I guess it's an arguement that can only be settled by watching the episode. And if someone has worked it out they will get a very big pat on the back from myself and I'm sure plenty of other fans!

MysteriaSleuthbedder wrote:

And also John does see him jump.

We don't know what John sees.  We do not see John and the fall in the same frame.  We see John looking up, and then we see Sherlock fall from behind.

We see John, then it pans up to the roof where we see Sherlock.  John never takes his eyes off of Sherlock from that point on. Sherlock is the one falling.  Puppets, dead bodies, Moriarty in disguise...why do any of that when the simple fact is that Sherlock can survive the fall with help from people on the ground and then stage his own dead body on the ground while John is knocked out for a few moments?  Make it too complicated and it could go wrong.