BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Star Trek (spoilers

miriel68 · June 21, 2013 4:29 pm

Mysteria, these are all excellent points, I especially like your interpretation of two catwomen in one bed . I guess I am playing a part of devils advocate here. To put it very simple, I don't find nuKirk very likeable and hence my criticism. May be it has something to do with my not so high opinion about CP acting skills. On the other hand, I found nuSpock a really rounded character and inspiring much sympathy, in spite of his flaws. (however, I find it hard to forgive Abrams for turning old Spock into hypocrite and liar! )

MysteriaSleuthbedder · June 21, 2013 7:41 pm

miriel68 wrote:
Mysteria, these are all excellent points, I especially like your interpretation of two catwomen in one bed . I guess I am playing a part of devils advocate here. To put it very simple, I don't find nuKirk very likeable and hence my criticism. May be it has something to do with my not so high opinion about CP acting skills. On the other hand, I found nuSpock a really rounded character and inspiring much sympathy, in spite of his flaws. (however, I find it hard to forgive Abrams for turning old Spock into hypocrite and liar! )

Well, we certainly agree about Kirk! And CP. Although, if you think about it, he's very "Shatner-like" in his acting, so maybe it's a choice? I've not seen him in anything else. As for Spock, Quinto is just perfection, as far as I'm concerned, in this role.

BUT - but wait.... how is Spock' a hypocrite and a liar? Is it his giving information to nuSpock that he said he wouldn't? But - when does he lie?

miriel68 · June 21, 2013 8:11 pm

Yes, I like ZQ performance very much. I also liked how they developed his background story in ST2009. I was not happy with his becoming too emotional in Kirk's death scene (but then, it is one of the few things I really disliked about the movie) and his going for vengeance after Khan, but well, it was the script's fault.
As for old Spock, I had some doubt about him in ST2009: he helped Kirk to manipulate Spock into resigning from captain's chair (because it was Kirk's destiny to become captain bla bla bla) and then he lied that he cannot meet his young self, only to contradict himself at the end of the film. I let it pass, because I love Nimoy. But in STiD his hypocrisy is blatant: "I made a vow never to tell you... that being said I must tell you..." how much more hypocritical you can get? And then, what he says about Khan is just not true: he is refering to Khan of the future (which won't happen) and in any case Montalbano's Khan was quite different, at least when they first had woken him. Once again, it is not Nimoy's fault, but just the way the script was written.

sj4iy · June 21, 2013 8:30 pm

miriel68 wrote:
Yes, I like ZQ performance very much. I also liked how they developed his background story in ST2009. I was not happy with his becoming too emotional in Kirk's death scene (but then, it is one of the few things I really disliked about the movie) and his going for vengeance after Khan, but well, it was the script's fault.
As for old Spock, I had some doubt about him in ST2009: he helped Kirk to manipulate Spock into resigning from captain's chair (because it was Kirk's destiny to become captain bla bla bla) and then he lied that he cannot meet his young self, only to contradict himself at the end of the film. I let it pass, because I love Nimoy. But in STiD his hypocrisy is blatant: "I made a vow never to tell you... that being said I must tell you..." how much more hypocritical you can get? And then, what he says about Khan is just not true: he is refering to Khan of the future (which won't happen) and in any case Montalbano's Khan was quite different, at least when they first had woken him. Once again, it is not Nimoy's fault, but just the way the script was written.

He lied to Kirk in ST09 because he wanted them to develop a friendship like he and his Kirk had...if Old Spock had interfered, New Spock would never have learned to trust new Kirk. We don't really know what Old Spock said to New Spock in ID, so I can't really comment on whether or not it was hypocritical. We saw him describe Khan, which I don't really think of as hypocritical, though. Just informative. And really, if I could cheat and call my older self to ask a question in a life-and-death situation, I sure would. We may or may not get a WoK movie like the first time around...do we really need it, though? Not imo.

I liked the cast, liked the story and loved the ending. Sure, it has some flaws...but Star Trek is full of them in the first place, and this had less than most. Can't wait to own it on Blu-ray.

besleybean · June 21, 2013 8:36 pm

Can't wait to get the DVD and hoping they make another film.

miriel68 · June 23, 2013 5:21 am

sj4iy wrote:
He lied to Kirk in ST09 because he wanted them to develop a friendship like he and his Kirk had...if Old Spock had interfered, New Spock would never have learned to trust new Kirk.

Yes, but in theory Vulcans do not lie, as nuSpock said (obviously, he told a lie here, lol!)
In any case, after having seen "Man of Steel" yesterday, I am ready to admit that STiD is a masterpiece, and it surely is in comparison to this new Superman production.

MysteriaSleuthbedder · June 23, 2013 9:25 am

miriel68 wrote:
Yes, I like ZQ performance very much. I also liked how they developed his background story in ST2009. I was not happy with his becoming too emotional in Kirk's death scene (but then, it is one of the few things I really disliked about the movie) and his going for vengeance after Khan, but well, it was the script's fault.

I think part of what JJ is doing is showing us a lot of - welll - "psychological backstory," I guess. We meet Kirk and Spock in TOS when they are in their mid-30s to maybe 40. But we meet Kirk and Spock in ST09 much younger by the time they meet in Starfleet. In their twenties. In the original series, we often saw Spock struggling with emotions, both human and Vulcan. Because of this, I find his emotionalism to be actually quite consistent with who he always was. The Spock we recall was already quite the mature man. The Spock we see here is his younger self.

Interestingly, to me, they actually used more elements from the TOS episode where Khan is first introduced than from STWOF. It made me think that the writers went back as far as they could to find the original personalities of the main characters. I don't know that's true, it just looks like it to me.

As for old Spock, I had some doubt about him in ST2009: he helped Kirk to manipulate Spock into resigning from captain's chair (because it was Kirk's destiny to become captain bla bla bla) and then he lied that he cannot meet his young self, only to contradict himself at the end of the film.

Well, let me play Devil's Advocate here. I don't have it in the house, but I did watch it again very recently and he actually never says that, iirc. He implies it, certainly, assuming Kirk will infer this as fact. Kirk never asks him specifically, and Spock just allows him to believe what he will.

What was fun was that the audience pretty much assumed the same thing, probably because its a classic theme in scifi: the time paradox of your two selves meeting. I actually loved at the end that the two Spocks seemed to think it was such an illogical human conclusion. It makes me think of how Rowling handled it in Harry Potter, the issue then is not a cosmically unsupportable paradox, but that a wizard, having the ability to wreak great damage almost instantaneously, might kill his future self.

And then, what he says about Khan is just not true: he is refering to Khan of the future (which won't happen) and in any case Montalbano's Khan was quite different, at least when they first had woken him. Once again, it is not Nimoy's fault, but just the way the script was written.

We never do hear just what Spock says to nuSpock, and I think that's because Khan's original backstory is unsupportable in the new ST. He just was never the ruler of a quarter of the earth from 1992-1996. We didn't have eugenics wars. I think it's interesting that it never occurred to them when they made ST-TOS, that anyone would even remember it 50 years later, much less have to justify anything they said. You know, in the original Khan was 200 years old. In STID he is 300. I think JJ wanted to leave his story open in case he comes back in future episodes and that's why we never hear exactly what Spock says about him.

Last edited by MysteriaSleuthbedder (June 23, 2013 9:27 am)

besleybean · June 23, 2013 9:54 am

And I hope he does come back to it!

SilverMoonDragonB · June 23, 2013 11:57 am

besleybean wrote:
And I hope he does come back to it!

Me too! He's just too good to not see again

SusiGo · July 10, 2013 9:23 pm

A nice video of the final showdown between Harrison and Spock. With a very yummy Benedict:

http://movies.yahoo.com/video/star-trek-darkness-brawl-bay-182246119.html

besleybean · July 10, 2013 10:09 pm

Hell and a mighty fine Zachary Quinto, too. I like him way too much!

bohemia · July 10, 2013 11:39 pm

Eeeeeep. I forgot about this thread, and in the interim there have been so many really awesome points raised. It's all a bit much to respond to so I'm going to just sit on the sidelines and enjoy the conversation.

Chiblits · July 11, 2013 1:55 am

This film....my god it was so amazing and the second Benedict appeared.....I think my heart skipped a beat (more so when he first spoke) I love his voice so much! HOWEVER, his performance as Khan was amazing he absolutely fit the part perfectly and even though he was the "bad" guy there was just the passion and emotion that makes you see another side of the character. He would do anything for his family, the ones he loved, and even though he may have done some bad things, in the end it was the needs of his few that outweighed the many others. I wonder if they will make another installment with Khan.

I enjoyed Into Darkness very much and cannot wait to see it again when it finally comes out.

MysteriaSleuthbedder · July 11, 2013 1:55 am

SusiGo wrote:
A nice video of the final showdown between Harrison and Spock. With a very yummy Benedict:

http://movies.yahoo.com/video/star-trek-darkness-brawl-bay-182246119.html

You buried the lead! SEPT 10TH!!!! We don't have to wait for Christmas.

That's only like - weeks! (Nice link, thank-you.)

besleybean · July 11, 2013 7:17 am

Yes, thankfully they bing out film DVDs so quiclkly these days.
My family are gonna get fed up of me wanting to watch it!

tonnaree · July 11, 2013 9:01 pm

[url=http://io9.com/new-star-trek-comic-to-explain-those-darned-1990s-eugen-746455110]http://io9.com/new-star-trek-comic-to-explain-those-darned-1990s-eugen-746455110http://io9.com/new-star-trek-comic-to-explain-those-darned-1990s-eugen-746455110http://io9.com/new-star-trek-comic-to-explai
n-those-darned-1990s-eugen-746455110http://io9.com/new-star-trek-comic-to-explain-those-darned-1990s-eugen-746455110

How about this boys and girls. [/url]

SusiGo · July 11, 2013 9:03 pm

MysteriaSleuthbedder wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
A nice video of the final showdown between Harrison and Spock. With a very yummy Benedict:

http://movies.yahoo.com/video/star-trek-darkness-brawl-bay-182246119.html
You buried the lead! SEPT 10TH!!!! We don't have to wait for Christmas.

That's only like - weeks! (Nice link, thank-you.)

Sorry, I got somehow distracted.

besleybean · July 11, 2013 9:03 pm

Cool.

crazybbcamerican · July 11, 2013 11:43 pm

MysteriaSleuthbedder wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
A nice video of the final showdown between Harrison and Spock. With a very yummy Benedict:

http://movies.yahoo.com/video/star-trek-darkness-brawl-bay-182246119.html
You buried the lead! SEPT 10TH!!!! We don't have to wait for Christmas.

That's only like - weeks! (Nice link, thank-you.)

Dude! I know what I want for our anniversary (which is the 30th :D)!

AliceI · July 13, 2013 5:07 am

I read through the first few pages of posts and it seems as though this movies was not well liked overall. That's too bad. I loved it.

The movie starts out at 100 mph and never really slows down. I thought that Mr. Cumberbatch was absolutely "bad-ass". I did cringe at the death scene when Spock screams Kahn's name. I know that it was a hats off to the first film with Bill Shatner, but it was so corny. The parallels with the first movie "The Wrath of Kahn" were there of course. I liked that it was Kirk who died in this film rather than Spock. Chris Pine dies well in my opinion.

I knew that the tribble was going to come back to life as soon as McCoy took the blood sample, that bit was very obvious, but frankly you can't kill off your hero or there will be no more films. I thought that this was a more plausible means to bring a dead man back than what they did after Wrath of Kahn.

The one thing I didn't really buy was that John Harrison was at any point someone you could either identify with or feel sorry for. (something that BC stated in an interview before the film was released) It is true that the Admiral Marcus was just as warped and evil, but that never bought Kahn any points in my book. I do like the way BC plays the bad guy. He was completely believable as Kahn and the fight scenes were spectacular! I especially loved how the Vulcan neck pinch didn't work on Kahn and only served to really piss him off. It was great watching him take down a whole garrison of Klingons, and then stand there and let Kirk punch him until Kirk couldn't stand up anymore.

If I had any problems with the plot it was that JJ Abrams tipped the hat too much to the original films. With the plot he set up in his first film he basically gave the Star Trek universe a whole new lease on life to go in any direction it wanted to, so having so much of the first film with Shatner showing through in this film kind of bothered me. I already saw the Wrath of Kahn, hell I own it for goodness sake. I want to see something new!

I will admit that the plot of the first Star Trek film that JJ Abrams did was absolutely brilliant. He did not live up (plot wise) in STID, but the stellar action, and supreme baddie made up for it. If he does a third film I sincerely hope he does not borrow from older films again. That really was the only aspect of this film that didn't work IMO.