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June 12, 2013 2:06 pm  #1


Holocaust (disclaimer: may offend)

Disclaimer: this topic is very sensitive & may/will offend people (not my intent but I know it will happen).

I know it happened almost seventy years ago but it's still something that I find difficult to let go of. I've also learned that obsessively reading about it on the internet can be very depressing (have been doing so for many years).

what I find the most difficult to comprehend is the fact that the creators of the holocaust were highly intelligent people - representing the best in their fields of their generation: doctors, architects, scientists, etc... if the holocaust was a result of the ignorance stemming from a lack of education, that I can understand - but the people involved were not uneducated at all, they were the intelligentia of their respective countries (it wasn't just the Nazis). How can someone with that kind of background engage in something so ignorant? 

 

June 12, 2013 2:55 pm  #2


Re: Holocaust (disclaimer: may offend)

Good question. Being German I've read and watched a lot about this subject but have never found a satisfactory answer. However, we shouldn't equate intelligent with good or human. You can be extremely clever and a criminal at the same time. I once read that the professional groups who first joined the NSDAP were teachers, doctors, lawyers, in short, educated people. Some of the scientists working in the camps saw their chance of doing "research" unimpeded by any ethical laws and regulations. Their curiosity overruled any moral instinct. And the Nazi system used them for its own purposes. 
 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

June 12, 2013 4:00 pm  #3


Re: Holocaust (disclaimer: may offend)

I'm studying the Holocaust currently at school and it's such a sad topic to do. I mean, people like Hitler must have been so confused to think like that; I almost feel sorry for them... I


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I was wondering if you'd like to have coffee...
Hmm. I really don't know. Oh, I'm sorry, did I say 'know'? I meant 'care'. I don't really care. 
Douglas Richardson, Cremona
 

June 12, 2013 4:44 pm  #4


Re: Holocaust (disclaimer: may offend)

It is a very emotive subject. I actually found the character of Colonel Hans Landa (played by Christoph Waltz) in Inglorious Basterds to be spot on as to be an explanation of the mind set. The scene where he is talking, oh so reasonably, to the French farmer and using the analogy of rats, is a clear explanation. The reasoning behind not only the Holocaust but also the 'treatment' of groups other than the Jews  (such as the Gypsies, homosexuals, Slavs, the disabled and mentally ill) is based upon the premise that they are 'sub-human' and conspiracy theories. The hatred and revulsion is based upon 'big lies'. If you can sell 'big lies' to the populace then the 'logic' that flows from these is self-sustaining.


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Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
 

June 12, 2013 5:51 pm  #5


Re: Holocaust (disclaimer: may offend)

No offense, Molly, but Hitler wasn't confused. He was evil. And nothing about him evokes empathy from me.

Hitler paid lip service to societal norms of morality, but, as Davina said, in the end he sold his poison in such a convincing fashion that many were swept along by his charisma and energy. Had those influenced by him not lost sight of right and wrong, he could not have been "successful" in the murder of so many innocents, no matter how charismatic or energetic he might have been. The Holocaust is but one example of what results when our understanding of absolutes regarding morality, justice, and such becomes clouded.


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June 12, 2013 6:34 pm  #6


Re: Holocaust (disclaimer: may offend)

I have no doubt that what HItler did was evil and that he had become an evil person. But I don't believe that he was just born like that; people aren't born with the desire to kill millions of others. It's not something that an average person would do. Maybe he had severe problems with empathy but I don't believe that he was just born as an evil man. I don't mean to sound in any way supportive of what he did at all; I just think that it's a pretty insane thing to do that probably has some explanation other than him just being a horrible person.


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I was wondering if you'd like to have coffee...
Hmm. I really don't know. Oh, I'm sorry, did I say 'know'? I meant 'care'. I don't really care. 
Douglas Richardson, Cremona
 

June 12, 2013 6:56 pm  #7


Re: Holocaust (disclaimer: may offend)

Although I may never understand it  there must have been something about Hitler that made people blindly follow him without thinking of the consequences.

Call it charisma or anything else but there are other incidents of this on a lesser scale. I'm talking about cults and their leaders. All they need is one person to sway a persons way of thinking to their own and you have a problem. Incidents of mass suicide shock the outside world but, at one stage in their lives, the people participating in these suicides would've been as appalled as the rest of us. However, something about the person they began to follow drew them in and controlled them. Even to the extent where they kill their own children.

This is the Holocaust on a much smaller scale but, I guess what I'm trying to say is, many of the people who committed war crimes were normal people recruited into a cult mentality and are victims themselves. Crimes they never would've done came easily to them and many probably never forgave themselves for it.

Of course, there are many who were guilty and no amount of justice can ever make up for what they did. They were monsters and deserved the ultimate punishment. I just don't think all were guilty.

I hope I haven't upset anyone with this as it was not my intention x


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He does love to be dramatic.
Well, thank god you're above all that!
 

June 12, 2013 11:42 pm  #8


Re: Holocaust (disclaimer: may offend)

The parallels you draw with cults are, I believe, very valid. If I may I'd like to explore these a little further and draw not only upon The Third Reich but also other regimes.

They have a charismatic leader. Hitler was, without doubt charismatic; listen to his speeches, watch him 'perform' if you are in any doubt of this. Cult leaders, including those within the higher echelons of power, know how to manipulate people; witness the rallies of Mussolini and their adaptation and expansion by the Nazis. Cult leaders know how to manipulate those who they have in their command structure; how to flatter, reward, motivate, threaten and, when necessary, eliminate.

The other similarity is the way in which the 'state' or the 'cult' becomes a substitute for family and normal society; people are expected to work for the benefit of the Nation or the cult- this may include physical work, producing children, worship of the cult leader(s) etc.

A further similarity is that those within the cult or the 'master race', or the Red Guard or the Khmer Rouge etc. are in positions of power and superiority they are an elite; those outside are powerless and inferior/sub-human etc. the same also in such events as the Rwandan  genocide and ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia.

It is valid also to examine the psychological make-up of those who become cult leaders or the leaders of totalitarian states such as Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Pol Pot etc. and those within their command structure.

Simply seeing these people, and those who colluded with them or who actively took part in genocide and other atrocities, as 'monsters' is, I feel, an over-simplification. It also holds the danger of lulling us into the false sense of security that, of course, such things could not happen 'here' (where ever 'here' may be). One only has to read studies of experiments, or even to watch programmes such as those Derren Brown has made, to see that, in fact, people are very easily manipulated; within a group will act in ways they would never do individually and how soon they can be made to feel superior or inferior to others and how their behaviour changes as a result.

I agree, Molly, that Hitler was unlikely to have been born evil. If one reads his biographies or Mein Kampf (even the title is revealing) then one can see certain key events that went to form his psychology. These, combined with historical events and the number of other men of a similar mind-set, worked together to create the Third Reich and all its subsequent systematic atrocities.

Hitler and most of his cronies, like many cult leaders, committed suicide in the final days of the Third Reich- many took their children with them. Another parallel with cults.

I seem to have written a mini-essay here. What do you folks think?


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Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
 

June 13, 2013 5:38 am  #9


Re: Holocaust (disclaimer: may offend)

I guess the only i could add to this discussion is that although the Nazis greatly expanded hate, they did not create it. They created the programs & the camps but not the hatred itself. This hate was a pre-existing condition that had already plagued Europe during that era.

The reason I targeted the educated elite in my original post is because I see their beginnings as university students. Being a hopeless Romantic, I've always been a great believer in the student movement & in its ability to create social change. This is one of the main reasons behind the Tian An Men square massacre in China - because the Chinese government recognised the power of the student movement to create change.

In the context of Nazi Germany, to have those same university students band together & become future warmongerers & mass murderers is a bit hard for me to swallow.

     Thread Starter
 

June 13, 2013 5:48 am  #10


Re: Holocaust (disclaimer: may offend)

I don't really have a 'good' answer either… (or, heck, any kind of expertise at all claimed on the man or history/human psychology aside from a somewhat unrelated family-country connection, with grandfather having talked about his (non-jewish) family getting out of Germany in the 1920's and coming over here "on the boat" and also that there was a relative who had "been in the kaiser's army, but I never really asked a whole lot about that, or how that period affected those groups to today)  …probably there isn't a good answer, and really, just can't imagine it.

Can't imagine it then, or now, with so many similar cases through time like others said, of a charismatic individual with enough intelligence and people skills (whether they are mentally sound, or not) to sway so many to their side.  If a small part of the bigger 'lie' this leader is telling sounds right to you (i.e. being patriotic or fitting in with a group that shares similar enough beliefs, or giving you a place to belong in an Us vs. Them solidarity), are humans so easily willing to overlook the 'this might be wrong' thought? 

Sigh… if they get that at all, considering every big thing we consider bad at one point had staunch supporters thinking it really was how things should be.  Reminding me of the slave trade, having just come off from watching 'Amazing Grace' - so many who didn't want it banned despite the morality of, for reasons considered perfectly viable of 'upholding the economy' or 'for keeping our country stronger than others'.  It does paint a discouraging picture contrasting how so often humans rally together for a better good, that it seems just as easy for many to decide as a group 'this practice is okay because I'm not the only one doing it, or because it's benefitting us somehow' even when it causes harm to others… it seems through history some people needed -some- group to pick on, and the fears/hatreds of the time would change which one that was?  The need to be for or against something/someone, or just plain weakness as an individual despite morals/education/etc?


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We solve crimes, I blog about it, and he forgets his pants.  I wouldn't hold out too much hope!

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June 13, 2013 6:24 am  #11


Re: Holocaust (disclaimer: may offend)

Fabulous discussion topic, well done.
I think we are talking about a number of different issues here.
I see it like this:
Any slavish adherence to an ideology(and sometimes this is out of desperation, fear and ignorance etc), coupled with hero worship, is often a lethal combination.
Hitler came from a troubled background, he experienced problems in his life and looked for scapegoats to blame.
When people find a champion, they will cling to them, particularly if they see it as a way to power and prestige.
The Allies humiliation of Germany after the First World War, left a desperate people who were ripe for manipulation by an unscrupulous' idol' who offered quick and easy solutions.
Of cours Hitler's job was made easier by the use of propaganda.
And as the wonderful Bob Dylan tells us: Propaganda, all is phoney.
There is no doubt that by the end, Hitler(in a Moriarty kind of way), was mentally ill.
Even his closest allies realised he'd gone too far.
Many humans act out of a fear of ' kill or be killed'.
Hitler used another tactic which is common to dictators, I know Saddam used it too.
He made sure many of those around him had ' blood on their hands', so they were all in it together, needed each other and were afraid of the system failing.
They all knew they were already heading for hell in a handcart, so better be hung for a sheep than a lamb.
Some ordinary Germans did not know what was going on.
They are not the ones I blame for complicity.  No doubt there was some racism, which was one born from ignorance.
There is jealousty when one group seems to be doing well in society, never mind the fact that they started from nothing and have worked their boots off to make a life for themselves.
No, but there were institutions that did know better and should have done more:  The Church for instance.
Just as in the Spanish Civil War, The Church chose to be on the side of the winners and not on the side of Right.

Last edited by besleybean (June 13, 2013 6:28 am)


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June 13, 2013 6:47 am  #12


Re: Holocaust (disclaimer: may offend)

Let me say one thing - once again I'm very, very proud of our board. The way this sensitive topic is discussed here is really amazing. There are so many true and intelligent things said by all of you. 



 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

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