BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mind palace scene

Davina · March 3, 2012 9:40 pm

Having just watched the Hounds of the Baskerville episode again, I was struck particularly by the scene where Sherlock is using his Mind Palace memory technique to work out the meaning of Liberty, Indiana, H.O.U.N.D. The use of on-scene text and images combined with Benedict's movements is amazing.

Sherlock Holmes · March 3, 2012 9:50 pm

I know, it's awesome...check it out:

I want a mind palace dance too!

BrandoMan13 · March 3, 2012 10:34 pm

Reminded me a little bit of the movie Minority Report and the computer that Tom Cruise uses.

Of course that is how I feel when I play around with my Xbox Kinect every now and then.

kazza474 · March 3, 2012 10:55 pm

I was watching a Jeremy Brett Sherlock movie the other day, (I was I could remember which one!) and while Sherlock was deducing he held his hand up for Watson to be quiet and proceeded to make small movements of the body while he both looked around and stopped and stared at times; it reminded me so much of the mind palace scenes that I am sure it was on older version of it.
Now Benedict did say the JB version in the movies was his favourite, I've no doubt that this is where the idea first sprung from, Moftiss likes JB's version also.

Joe Riggs · May 15, 2012 11:43 am

As a Mentalist, Psychological Entertainer & Consultant, I use the actual Memory Palace technique or "Method of Loci" constantly. I just wrote and article teaching it. The article is called "The Memory Palace - From Sherlock Holmes to Building Your Own." If you're interested, check it out at www.TheWorldOfJoeRiggs.com/blog

Enjoy ;-)

Sherlock Holmes · May 15, 2012 11:56 am

Nice to meet you Joe - your website is awesome!

Joe Riggs · May 15, 2012 12:04 pm

Thank you so much. I'm new here, but it seems like a great place to be. After a lifelong obsession with Sherlock Holmes, I've been in adoration of the BBC's adaptation since day one. Streaming 'A Study in Pink' from my lovely brown couch in West Palm Beach, USA. ;-)

jenosborn · May 15, 2012 8:03 pm

Joe thanks for the link - I really enjoyed your article! Sometimes we forget that these techniques can work to some extent for us ordinary non-fictional people.

I enjoyed the DVD commentary included in the Hounds of the Baskerville episode, with Steven Moffat, Mark Gatiss,
and Russell Tovey who played Henry-- re: the mind palace, and if budget were larger, how they might have envisioned that sequence:

Russell: “What, the Mind Palace isn’t a Conan Doyle thing?"

Steven: “No, no. It’s a really interesting idea. It’s how you store information in your brain."

Mark: “Hannibal Lecter does it, and it’s a real idea."

Russell: “Have you ever done it?"

Steven: “No, I’m far too stupid."

Mark: “But it is a real technique."

Steven: “I think we should revisit it – if you did a visualisation of Sherlock actually walking around it while talking to somebody, then you cut to them listening to him and he’s sitting there with his eyes shut."

Mark: “We talked about that, but we couldn’t afford it!"

(taken from the DVD commentary transcriptions-- http://arianedevere.livejournal.com/36671.html)

Joe Riggs · May 15, 2012 11:33 pm

That is a wonderful back and forth! The scene that they did do was still pretty stellar. But interesting to see how their thought process went on decided to use the Memory Palace. Thank you for that!

Wholocked · May 16, 2012 1:26 am

Well I must be the odd one out here cause I didn't really like that scene. I mean, I liked it in a technical sense but I didn't think it really worked in the episode. He just looked a little ridiculous. And, from a completely know-nothing-much-about-this-technique standpoint, I don't really see those who practice it as waving their hands around and physically acting out their minds-eye actions. It's supposed to be a purely mental thing (I could be wrong on that of course).

I dunno...it just seemed off to me.

Sherlock Holmes · May 16, 2012 7:52 am

Actually, it is common to have some amount of physicality when recalling things, although granted, Sherlock's moves are obviously significantly exagerated for dramatic effect!

But having a scene like this is really the only way we can see how Sherlock's memory recall works and for that reason I find it pretty interesting. It inspired me to work on my own Mind Palace which is now a fairly awesome place where I like to hang out when people are boring me!

kazza474 · May 16, 2012 10:15 am

Wholocked wrote:
Well I must be the odd one out here cause I didn't really like that scene. I mean, I liked it in a technical sense but I didn't think it really worked in the episode. He just looked a little ridiculous. And, from a completely know-nothing-much-about-this-technique standpoint, I don't really see those who practice it as waving their hands around and physically acting out their minds-eye actions. It's supposed to be a purely mental thing (I could be wrong on that of course).

I dunno...it just seemed off to me.

No, you are not the odd one out by a long shot.
Method of Loci is not used by everyone, however it is 'topical' at the moment.

Frankly I don't process thoughts that way at all and to me it is far too 'cluttered' to be logical to me. For example one suggestion was to remember your shopping list by walking through your house ; so let's say it went like thai:

Bed - eggs
dresser - bread
Tv - milk

I'd get to Bed - eggs and think "Why are the eggs on the bed?" That is just too illogical to contemplate; in my opinion.
Why clutter the list with furniture? I want to make scrambled eggs; so I need eggs, bread & milk.

That's a very simplified example & no doubt those who say they use it all the time will howl me down. Fine. I do understand how their thought processes work, I just don't believe there is any need for it.
Oh, and my memory is excellent, thanks for asking.

And yes, the scene went a little over the top, but obviously it was done for entertainment value. One hopes they don't repeat it in future episodes.

Sherlock Holmes · May 16, 2012 10:41 am

kazza474 wrote:
Bed - eggs
dresser - bread
Tv - milk

I'd get to Bed - eggs and think "Why are the eggs on the bed?" That is just too illogical to contemplate; in my opinion.
Why clutter the list with furniture? I want to make scrambled eggs; so I need eggs, bread & milk.

Lol, that made me giggle, and yes I can understand that...I think if I did it that way I'd probably get to the bed and think "mmm, did I need to remember a bed or eggs? Am I buying a bed today??"

I try and give things a better association so if I needed to remember 'milk' and was linking it with a TV, I'd imagine walking into the room seeing the TV was on and noticing there was an advert for milk on the telly.

Having said that, I wouldn't use it to remember a shopping list anyway - that's what a pen and paper is for! Never really understood the example of using it for shopping...

kazza474 · May 16, 2012 11:08 am

Well can someone give me a more 'relevant' use they have for this system? We have many here who use it, so I am hoping someone can give examples of how they employ this tactic.

Joe Riggs · May 16, 2012 2:12 pm

Frankly I don't process thoughts that way at all and to me it is far too 'cluttered' to be logical to me. For example one suggestion was to remember your shopping list by walking through your house ; so let's say it went like this:

Bed - eggs
dresser - bread
Tv - milk

I'd get to Bed - eggs and think "Why are the eggs on the bed?" That is just too illogical to contemplate; in my opinion.
Why clutter the list with furniture? I want to make scrambled eggs; so I need eggs, bread & milk.

That's a very simplified example & no doubt those who say they use it all the time will howl me down. Fine. I do understand how their thought processes work, I just don't believe there is any need for it.

First of all,

It is not far to cluttered to be logical. It is actually an extremely logical and effective way of storing large amounts of information. Using a Memory Palace to remember a short list is a drastic waste of time, that would be highly illogical. It would also be illogical to 'explain' the Memory Palace technique by jumping into an explanation that involves the reader memorizing 100 words. That explanation would be long, convoluted and illogical. Shorter examples illuminate the process faster.

Science has proven that ridiculous or 'silly' images are in fact tremendously easier to recall. They are stored in long term memory almost instantly. Here, the illogical images have a logical purpose.

Not used by everyone? Well no, it is certainly not used by everyone. It is certainly not used by most people, it is rather small fraction of people. However the vast majority of people that do actually utilize the real, Memory Palace 'method of loci' method are memory experts, mentalists, mathematicians, criminal profilers etc.. Yet the Memory Palace can be mastered rather quickly, by about anyone.

Practicality.

The obvious fact that the system is designed for storing large chucks of information, rather than small ones should at least allude to the implications of its usefulness.

Akira Haraguchi successfully memorized and recited (in 16 hours, 28 minutes) 83,431 digits of the mathematical constant pi. In a record-breaking 1 minute, 40 seconds, journalist Joshua Foer memorized and recalled perfectly the exact order of two full decks of playing cards. Although jaw-dropping, these feats aren't the domain of idiot savants. They both used the Method of Loci.

Speaking from my own person experience in my work and my stage demonstrations I can only attest to memorizing the populations of every major US city, the white pages from various phone books, all of the definitions in the 'Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders' (DSM) published by the American Psychiatric Association, every cue and nonverbal signal in the Nonverbal Dictionary, etc... These things, are infinitely useful, to me.

Those are just examples of things that I've stored permanently. One of the greatest advantages to taking the time to master the method and fully create a Memory Palace is the ability you gain to memorize larger and larger chunks of information on the go, or on the spot. I generally begin my stage demonstrations by having an audience member write down a list of fifty random words. I then have one minute to study it, they take it back and keep it till the end of the show during which I have random audience members call out the numbers 1-50 OUT of order and I have to recall the word. Given this is two hours later from the initial minute I had to memorize the list, add to that being able to recall the words 'out of order' is a skill made automatic by the method of loci. In your Memory Palace, recalling information can be done forwards, backwards or completely out of order at the same speed. Each piece of information is stored and attached to a permanent object in your 'mind palace' making it no issue to locate it individually, and be aware of exactly where or what 'position' it is, in relation to your 'list' or 'chunk' of information you're memorizing.

Lastly, the list is not 'cluttered' with furniture. Furniture is a naturual part of your Memory Palace, seeing as how we are to choose a place that we have once lived, or know extremely well to use for your Memory Palace. Depending on what location you choose, your interior would vary.

Method of Loci comes from the Greek and boils down to a 'mental walk' through a known 'location.' Every single object inside your 'palace' or 'place' becomes a stationary peg, that you can then attach things to as per the system.

While the system may not be used by everyone, nor is it likely 'for' everyone; It can definitely be learned, mastered and utilized to great ends by just about anyone. It does take time and practice, as one would expect I would imagine.

I hope I have illuminated at least some of the shadows around this topic. The things that are 'useful' for myself to memorize are of course, not the things that would be useful to everyone. What to store or memorize is a matter left entirely up to the person with the shiny new Memory Palace. ;-)

The best of days to everyone...

Last edited by Joe Riggs (May 16, 2012 2:40 pm)

Davina · May 16, 2012 5:29 pm

Can I also refer you all to the following BBC article:

www.news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7982327

This article mentions Dominic O'Brien and his technique for remembering vast lists of numbers Nd also Ben Pridmore, memory champion.
'Again this technique simply exploits a natural way of membering,' says Mr. O'Brien, pointing out that if a person is asked to recall everything they did during the day, they will tend to start by running through everywhere they went.' About the technique he adds: 'In effect your are tricking your brain into believing it is experiencing something.'
'There is no magic,' says Dr. Moulin ( cognitive neuropsychologist at the University of Leeds, UK). 'The only reason why these people can do these things, it's not actually by improving their memory, it's by improving all the structures that surround their memory.'

I found both Joe's article and this article very interesting.

I used to think that everyone who read a story in a book had the same ability/facility as myself to rewind the story and 'see' it visually rather like a film. Even when I am reading a small section of a story, even in another language, I actually see the story unfolding in all its detail in my mind. Later, when I am asked to recall parts, even a week or two later, it is a case of rewinding and replaying it. This has never been a conscious effort on my part, I have always engaged with text like this. Does anyone else do this? Just wondering.

sherlockskitty · May 16, 2012 6:12 pm

I have problems with memory. that's why I write things down. Sometimes I'll want something that's in another room, , but when I get there I forget what it is, so i gotta go out to the room where i thot of it, and then I remember.

I believe JB first did his mind technique scene in the first one they aired, Scandal in Bohemia. But I LOVED how sherlock did it in this movie..."Get out...I need to go to my mind palace" very well put together, altho I did wonder why they put the dogs in there and elvis presley too...great scene tho.

Davina · May 16, 2012 6:21 pm

The dogs were because of the word HOUND and Elvis Presley because of 'I ain't nothing but a HOUND dog.'

I have to write things down as well.

kazza474 · May 17, 2012 6:57 am

Joe Riggs wrote:
Speaking from my own person experience in my work and my stage demonstrations I can only attest to memorizing the populations of every major US city, the white pages from various phone books, all of the definitions in the 'Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders' (DSM) published by the American Psychiatric Association, every cue and nonverbal signal in the Nonverbal Dictionary, etc... These things, are infinitely useful, to me.

Each to their own; frankly to me, that's a whole lot of nothing. (And yes of course I simplified the examples, in hope of simplified answers.)

Now because you make a dollar out of storing that sort of stuff in your mind it's useful to you. In society, it's hardly necessary though is it?

Memory experts & mentalists don't inspire any worthwhile purpose to me and by the nature of their 'profession' one would assume they would employ this technique to some extent so I will leave those out of this question; do you have any figures on Mathematicians & Criminal Profilers that use this method? I mean to claim 'a vast majority' would indicate some kind of data must be available on the subject.

What annoys me most about this whole thing is that there are people, especially young people ( I am speaking in relation to the Sherlock fans) out there who will believe that this method is the answer to all their problems education wise. They will spend countless hours trying to 'perfect' what can never be 'perfect'. They will see posts like your here, go to sites like yours & waste so much valuable time & resources on something that they may or may not achieve.

In the end, there are far more worthwhile ways of learning, remembering & contributing to society. And the biggest erroneous belief is that it is some kind of indicator of a higher than average IQ.

It's just one of life's little quirks & like many mnemonic devices, the application of the data stored is the real test of what is worthwhile ; in my opinion.

Joe Riggs · May 19, 2012 1:58 pm

Each to their own; frankly to me, that's a whole lot of nothing.

A whole lot of nothing, that phrase is actually riddled with a 'whole' lot of nothing. Nothing being any form of research or acknowledgement of the hundreds of thousands of people that use the Memory Palace for a extremely extravagant range of purposes. But yes, they don't count. Whatever they are doing is most likely a whole lot of nothing.

Now because you make a dollar out of storing that sort of stuff in your mind it's useful to you. In society, it's hardly necessary though is it?

In society I've found making dollars tends to be necessary.

Storing large amount of information in your mind could assist one in that endeavor in more ways that I can possibly fathom. It doesn't take long to comprehend how that might be advantageous to ones self.

I'm amazed that was actually a 'real' question. That is something I want to store in my Palace, right now.

Mentalists don't inspire any worthwhile purpose

Thank you for your wonderful insult to my profession. One I have used to help, inspire as well as entertain thousands upon thousands of people. That was very well thought out of you. I can assure you that if you have even so much as lightened the burden of someones day, you have served a worthwhile purpose.

Feel free to only agree with things that have a worthwhile purpose, to you.

No one ever said this method was an 'answer to all ones problems.' Rather a method designed for a specific purpose available to ANYONE who desires to use it.

erroneous belief is that it is some kind of indicator of a higher than average IQ.

Indicator of a higher IQ? No one, said that at all. You should spend a little less time being 'annoyed' as you said, and put that time towards research and contemplation

more worthwhile ways of learning, remembering & contributing to society

I have spent my entire life studying the plethora of related subjects. For anyone to declare their are 'more worthwhile ways of learning, remembering & contributing to society' has clearly lost all concept of the idea of 'freely' sharing a very scientific and documented technique with people who are clearly interested in it, in an open forum such as this. Learning, remembering & contributing? Hmm.

I do value your opinion. However I do wish when speaking to a particular subject with such passion and opinion you should possibly understand more about it. As for asking me for the statistics you spoke of, the research is available. I love sharing what I know and taking the time to answer questions as much as possible but I do not have the time to conduct a survey.

I think I forgot something...

Scratch that, found it. ;-)

Last edited by Joe Riggs (May 19, 2012 2:04 pm)