QuiteExtraordinary wrote:

AliceI wrote:

For instance Fox Mulder and Dana Scully "The X-Files" (at least in the series on TV) were never romantically involved even though most of the fans of that program saw them as a couple. 

I think statements like this are what is perceived as offending by some. At least it upsets me sometimes.
I have seen most of the X-Files episodes. To me, that was another series where the writers quite cleverly played with the question if the two main characters were a couple or not. The question was never really answered - although they were never shown as a couple, the possibility always seemed to be there. Now when you say "they were never romantically involved even though most of the fans saw them as a couple", it sounds a bit as if you think you were better informed than all the other viewers and that your opinion on the nature of the relationship is the only right interpretation. That can make other people (who might have a different opinion) feel offended, even if it's not meant that way.
 

I saw an interview with the creator of the show and he said that Mulder and Scully would never wind up in bed together. The question of their possible romantic involvement was indeed answered by the creator of the characters. That was actually the first question asked and the answer was concise. The interviewer asked about situations within the series that pointed in that direction and he had the same answer. They are just very close friends and partners. He said that he even crafted an episode to address this. I don't remember which one, but I know that it dealt with the two of them being friends in past lives.

I don't seem to be able to express my opinion or any point of view for that matter without someone taking offense. Okay I suppose that tells me something. 

Thanks - I'm out.
 

Last edited by AliceI (February 10, 2013 8:35 pm)

AliceI wrote:

I saw an interview with the creator of the show and he said that Mulder and Scully would never wind up in bed together. The question of their possible romantic involvement was indeed answered by the creator of the characters. That was actually the first question asked and the answer was concise. The interviewer asked about situations within the series that pointed in that direction and he had the same answer. They are just very close friends and partners. He said that he even crafted an episode to address this. I don't remember which one, but I know that it dealt with the two of them being friends in past lives.

That was not my point.

I knew I should have kept out of this discussion.

I agree with you, Davina. I think we should be able to talk about this in a friendly and tolerant way. It makes me a bit sad to see this development once again. We all should know better. There's room for all kinds of opinions. At least I hope so. 

That was an interesing travel report, KP! Basically, it seems like I've been travelling with the same group.

Mm that sounds like a good idea, and then other people can post their stories about how they first became "Johnlocked" and it might be quite interesting!

AG, maybe you could start a new thread for it with all parts of your story? Then others could follow.

As for this thread, I think we seem to be getting back on track somewhat. A little deviation on fan fic is OK, as with any conversation, topics veer off into different areas for a while before ultimately coming back to the original topic. And this is the same on the internet as in real life, so I think it's fine...

Different opinions are welcome, but of course, with different opinions comes heated debate, and this is always going to happen where there's a clash of views, particularly if one feels protective over their own opinions. The written word can often be interpreted to be more harsh or insulting than it actually is, so I think bear that in mind and if someone is upset by/or has upset someone else, bring it up with the actual person and try to iron it out. In this case, I think that's happened and things will be fine.

Remember, it's not personal, just an opinion.

Oooh, can I just quickly add....

This isn't ACTUALLY a Johnlock thread. The topic is "Discussions on the John and Sherlock relationship".

Note 'discussions'....therefore views of both sides should be welcomed, encouraged and accepted without overly harsh criticism or anything that might be deemed as a personal attack.

This thread is not owned or monopolised in anyway by the Johnlockers, so if you don't agree with it or think it's stupid or don't understand why people ship them...speak up, and don't be afraid to do so!

To use a Sherlock quote:

"I'm not free to say..."
"Oh you most certainly are free, and I suggest you remain so."

Right, that's all I'm going to say on the matter (hopefully). If anyone wants to discuss it further, PM me, otherwise, back to the topic with you all!

tobe,
my thoughts exactly. What about Westie and his fiance?
He was quiet. Went away, said he had to see someone. Was a good man.
 

" Many young people simply have not lived long enough or experienced enough of life and relationships to have a true understanding that two people no matter who they are can be exceptionally close without a romantic element to the relationship. For instance Fox Mulder and Dana Scully "The X-Files" (at least in the series on TV) were never romantically involved even though most of the fans of that program saw them as a couple"

eeee....ahhhh...ok I am older too. I don't write fanfic and I'm not especially drawn to it. My jury is completely out on the whole Johnlock situation, my only issue is that there seems to be such reaction against it from some people-some people seem to have such an issue with them being romantically or sexually attracted to each other-and I just think, "why? Why does this bother you so much?".

But I'm afraid I do see Sherlock and John as unusual in their relationship. They are very devoted to each other. Their final act is to reach out to each other. That just isn't something I can imagine any straight close friends doing. I can't see my brother on his deathbed reaching out to his best friend from school, to whom he is close, who he has known for twenty years and who he sees a lot of and has lived with. We are not talking about friends here, we are talking about an exclusive friendship which people who know them both well percieve as a marriage, and accord the level of respect you would a marriage (look at how Lestrade treats them, or how they are photographed together). 

To put it another way. Mulder and Scully was mentioned. But-they did end up a couple. They had a child together. They end up living together by the time of the next film. At the end they are unambiguously together. I do not remember any outcry from fans (yes when I say I'm old, I mean I remember the M&S fandom. I am old. Same ish age as Sherlock anyway). Which would be my point really-this hedging around and hinting is seen as the prequel to romance for a heterosexual couple but when its two men (or women-less so there) people start crying "nowadays everything is about sex!". I am 99% sure that if John or Sherlock were female a lot of the people protesting Johnlock would see their interactions as "flirting" and be speculating as to when exactly they would get it together. There's a double standard here, IMO.

And finally--re this comment about alley cats or whatever it was. Sherlock works, in part, just as Dr Who does in part, because its head writers are hardcore fanboys (yes, its all men writing, a shame) who know not only ACD, not only all the pastiches and spin offs, but also a lot of fanfic and the fanfic conventions inside out. Was Moffat not on twitter or something saying he'd read all the Reichbach theories? I haven't read all the theories-has anyone? Dr Who uses conventions from fanfic/spin off novels all over the place. I think, providing it stays nice, the fanfic including the slash is actually something the writers welcome. Its the way that some people choose to interact and have a dialogue with and about the show ; posting on here is another.  And my god if nothing else it does not hurt the ratings. So I don't think anyone should worry about what the writers or producers think, I mean so long as it stays non-offensive. Don't forget Sherlock is essentially a fanfic.

Last edited by beekeeper (March 31, 2013 1:47 pm)

Yeah I want to be clear, here. I am not saying the writers are implying Johnlock.

I am saying that they are leaving that particular door open. I mean there is example after example. Put a woman in John's shoes and no one would have any doubt. 

The confusion is arising because they are two men and they have not been flagged as gay and people seem to struggle with that in TVland where sexuality is treated as a core identity rather than a reaction to a particular person, as it kind of is for many of us.

I'd say the canon also leaves the door wide, wide open for that. ACD was writing, iirc, at the time of the Oscar Wilde (and other) trials. He knew Oscar Wilde. For him to write the characters as gay would have been well on impossible-you did that, as Wilde did, and ended up with a scandal and worse, no writing contract. But he did write about a man who did not love women and for whom the only time we hear him described as feeling love it is for another man, Watson (and that was, btw, written at a time when homosexuality was becoming acceptable again) The canon does not come down on either side: Its not clear is the point. But make Watson a woman and no one would be in any doubt.

And that is what the writers are doing. They are taking a debate as old as the original canon and, rather than either dodging it or coming down on one side or another, they are giving us enough that without bringing in our own predjudices and ideas, we just can't be certain either way. They are lampshading the uncertainty, just as they do with Irene Adler.

I've heard different things from the writers actually and the lead actors regarding the relationship between the characters, to the extent that I've wondered if they've decided to take deliberately opposing views to confuse the issue further ;-). I also think its worth remembering that the owner of the US Sherlock Holmes rights threatened to pull funding for the Robert Downey film if it had homoerotic overtones, so there might be a playing safe element. 

I've said elsewhere my only problem with a bromance is the double standard. If a man-woman engages in "bromance" its seen on some level to be a romantic relationship or its precursor. I can't think of a single m-f bromance with didn't end up this way. And if men and women engage in bromance style interaction then its flirting. Two men do it and its a "special kind of NON-SEXUAL love". It comes down for me to, yeah, maybe John is a bit gay. <shrug>. Why the big deal? Men, and women,have been realising they are not as straight as they thought for millenia. Often it goes nowhere, its just an unacted on realisation. Who cares? Lets normalise that, I say. Its possible to have some same-sex feelings while being fundementally straight (I'm guessing), we don't need a special word for it.

Last edited by beekeeper (March 31, 2013 2:32 pm)

Beekeeper.
I don't know what you mean about them not being flagged as gay and people struggling with it?
I know I was confused by the gay thing, when I 1st saw PINK.
Then I got with the script, that it was going to be a running series joke.
I understand ACD's dilemma.  But then why have Watson marry?
Are you talking about Doyle or Wilde in the : 'a man who did not love women' bit?
Maybe I'm just very shallow, I think that Gatiss and Moffat are quite clear.
The only slight confusion is with Irene and this is because it's the 1st time Sherlock has been confronted with love...possibly for Irene, too. Maybe it was just sex for her, before.
I can only repeat thet Benedict said he believed Sherlock was attracted to Irene.  He referred to the fan art by saying it depicted what Sherlock and John would not be doing with their bodies to each other.
I still maintain that our boys don't want sex with each other. but they love each other.
I am not really bothered what label peoeple put on that, if any label at all.

Last edited by besleybean (March 31, 2013 2:41 pm)