BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Sherlock: "I don't care what people think."

besleybean · February 10, 2013 8:35 am

See, I had this discussion on my original fansiite. I seem to be at odds with everybody else on this.
I just did not read that scene this way at all.
Maybe this says more about me! But I thought it was all part of the gay joke thing.
Sebastian clearly thinks Sherlock is gay and that John is his boyfriend.
John knowas that's what Sebastian is implying with ' friend' and that's why he changes it to ' colleague'. He is is no way having a go at Sherlock.

Mattlocked · February 10, 2013 8:52 am

Fits anyway.
Sherlock wants to proudly present a friend to Sebastian (as he obviously has been known at uni for not having any)
and John changes it to colleague because of that gay thing.

Last edited by Mattlocked (February 10, 2013 8:54 am)

besleybean · February 10, 2013 9:02 am

I really need to watch this again...as I don't even remember Sherlock being that proud, I just thought he states as fact.
At the time, the ' caring for what peopel think ' thing was more that he's worried John is gettign p----d off with the gay thing!
I strongly suspected Sherlock had put up with this from the likes of Sebastian, right from uni days at least.

Mattlocked · February 10, 2013 9:07 am

I don't remember either if he said it "proudly", but just the fact that he introduces John as 'friend' to Sebastian showed me what I mentioned above. I'm right now trying to remember if he introduced him as 'friend' somewhere else, but I don't think so. That's why. Or maybe I just don't remember.
On the other hand I don't think that Sherlock ever worried about John's thoughts about that gay thing....?

Last edited by Mattlocked (February 10, 2013 9:08 am)

tobeornot221b · February 10, 2013 9:14 am

Mattlocked wrote:
I don't remember either if he said it "proudly", but just the fact that he introduces John as 'friend' to Sebastian showed me what I mentioned above. I'm right now trying to remember if he introduced him as 'friend' somewhere else, but I don't think so. That's why. Or maybe I just don't remember.
On the other hand I don't think that Sherlock ever worried about John's thoughts about that gay thing....?

No, Sherlock didn't introduce John as "friend" elsewhere.
No, I don't think Sherlock ever worried about John's feelings concerning the gay thing.
"People will talk" - "People do little else."

Mattlocked · February 10, 2013 10:36 am

Swanpride wrote:
.........and to me, he defitinitly looks hurt about Sebastian's words.
......

One of my favourite, subtle scenes.

Davina · February 10, 2013 10:43 am

I think that Sherlock's introduction of John as a 'friend' to Sebastian is because at University he had no 'friends'. Sebastian says everyone hated him, which is quite a cruel thing to say, but is also probably quite true. Especially when Sherlock came out with socially inappropriate observations such as who was sleeping with whom (echoes of Anderson/Donovan in ASiP).

besleybean · February 10, 2013 10:45 am

Hang on, the only other times I remember Sherlock introducing John to anybody are in PINK and it's Sally and Lestrade.
I can't be bothered to look, but you PINKites remind me: it's 'colleague' with Sally, isn't it?
But with Lestrade's it's just: 'he's with me'.
He's only known Sally as a kind of colleague, but it sounds like Sebastian and him were in the same uni crowd.

AliceI · February 10, 2013 5:10 pm

This scene that has everyone talking - I just pulled it up and watched it again. Then watched it with subtitles, then watched it a third time.

Call me dense, but I just don't see what everyone is talking about. Sherlock did put an emphasis on the word 'friend' that I saw, but the camera pans over to Sebastian at that point then to John when he corrects the word friend and identifies himself as a colleague. You see Sebastian scratch his neck and turn to sit down before the camera pans back to Sherlock.

Maybe John was concerned about being mistaken as a "friend" That would fit with every other episode in the series, but I honestly didn't see any hurt or other emotion on Sherlock's face at all.

Someone here mentioned that they didn't know why Sherlock brought John along to the bank. He brought John almost everywhere with him. Remember Mrs. Hudson hid his skull. LOL I get the distinct impression that John only stays at home when he really doesn't want to go on some adventure, like say when Sherlock harpooned a pig. A trip to the bank usually wouldn't hold out the danger of bloodshed; also John had just gotten through asking Sherlock to lend him some money.

Mattlocked · February 10, 2013 5:40 pm

God, where is my favourite gif, when I need it?
Alice, look a bit further. Sebastian says: 'We all hated him.' After that you can see Sherlock looking sad.
I agree with you that there's noting like that to see in the scene you mention. There it's just the fact that Sherlock calls John a friend, what he never did before or later.

Edit: Found it.

http://shaddicted.tumblr.com/post/2701297644/chmchm-dariinkk-cry-forever-d-seb-john

Last edited by Mattlocked (February 10, 2013 5:42 pm)

besleybean · February 10, 2013 5:41 pm

Well, until HOUND.

Mattlocked · February 10, 2013 5:44 pm

Right. In Baskerville he says it to John.

besleybean · February 10, 2013 5:46 pm

Yeah, but how many new people has he met where he needs to introduce his friend? They're both media stars now!

Sentimental Pulse · February 11, 2013 2:31 am

This is a very interesting and difficult topic and after reading all the posts it is clear to see that the participants have covered it thoroughly and intelligently as always.

I am not sure my two cents add much to it at this point but I'll give it a whirl

My views align most clearly with Alice especially as expressed in her original post. I don't believe there is one absolute criteria that dictates Sherlock's need or desire to be liked or to accepted as right or wrong. There appear to be different motivating elements.

1.) Sherlock's most prized possession is his unshakable belief that he is the master of deduction, He can always hold on to this despite all else he may not fathom or understand about human emotion or social interaction, So it is important that in his peer group of super brains he is recognized as the leader, hence the ego battles with Irene, Moriarty and the cabbie. He must be recognized and lauded by these peers

2.) Sherlock has no idea how to cultivate or maintain personal relationships due to Aspergers. So he pretends they mean nothing to him. While it is true he is uber choosy and discriminating about who he lets into his "inner circle" it is also true that much of his relationship criteria is based on how far others are willing to go to put up with Sherlock's eccentricities and his insensitive and boorish behavior, qualities he knows he can't or does not want to work on. Clearly these people will be around him constantly and he wants and need that despite his protestations to the contrary. He not only wants their praise but on some subconscious level feels he needs to be intellectually special to keep the friendships as he has nothing else noncaustic to offer.

3.) The Sebastian thing is simply a case of Sherlock being hurt by mass rejection at the school boy level because we was an unsocial nerd. We all want revenge in cases like that. Sebastian by himself is of no worth to Sherlock. It is the mass rejection and the need to avenge the scars of youth that come into play here.

All that being said..I am probably 100% wrong

Davina · February 11, 2013 6:55 am

Two cents very well spent SP. I agree entirely.

besleybean · February 11, 2013 7:14 am

Yes that was very helpful because it reminds me and saves me having to watch BANK again, tho I know I should.
I seem to remember that Sherlock in good faith greets Seb as a former uni associate, in fact Seb is initially openly and STRAIGHTLY welcoming to Sherlock.
THEN Sherlock introduces John as his ' friend'....this is where the interpretation thing comes in.
But I am just trying to keep with the ' gay' theme of the series oh and I should add at this point: I wasn't really trying to imply Sherlock was concerned about the contnual 'gay' thing, I rather meant it as a: welcome to my world thing, this is what I have to put up with and I'm sorry but I can do nothing about you being tarred with the same brush...thing!
But yes, I equally accept it could be the: 'Sherlock no friends' theme, too.
Incidentally, I do think Sherlock cares what John thinks(now) and seeks his approval, if possible.

Last edited by besleybean (February 11, 2013 4:38 pm)

miriel68 · February 11, 2013 12:26 pm

Very interesting thread! I completely agree with some posts (especially Alice and Sentimental Pulse ) so I would just like to add one or two things:
1. Sherlock cares quite a lot what people think about his superior brain: he loves showing off and impress the people. During the first meeting in Bakerstreet, when Watson tells him that he checked his website, Holmes is all pleased and expectant, only to be disappointed a second later when John seems skeptical about it. Also, a turning point in their relationship is in the taxi, when John says with genuine admiration "it was amazing". In TRF he may say that he doesn't bother what other people think, but it's not quite true, even John knows it. And he is specially distressed that Lestrade and John could think he is a fake (the scene when he looses control and shouts "Can't you SEE what's going on?!" is chilling). To "die in disgrace" is in fact the worst disgrace for him - and exactly the motive Moriarty chose to play it against him.
2. I am not sure about Asperger. Yes, John mentions it, but I don't think it a "serious" diagnosis. S. is obviously able to understand other people's feeling - if he bothers to do it. He was evidently sorry for his nasty comments on Molly on Christmas and he understood perfectly why John was disappointed with him in TGG. Again, Moriarty is very astute when he points out that "it is not completely true" that S. has "no heart" and plays it against him.
3. I think it is evident that Sherlock craves for a true friendship - he needs it desperately - and this is shown beautifully in the series. The upgrade from "collegue" to "friend" between SiP and BB is quite logical, he couldn't really present John as a "friend" after having barely met him, but the scene with Sebastian is really very revealing imo (my one and only favourite scene from BB, to tell the truth). Another such a moment is the Christmas day when he makes nasty comment on Molly in reaction to her revelation that Sherlock is "complaining" about John going away for Christmas. He doesn't want the people to know how deeply he cares and what's more how deeply he NEEDS John.

Davina · February 11, 2013 7:06 pm

The other motive for sabotaging John's relationships is that they make it harder for John to be at the beck and call of Sherlock whenever he needs him.

besleybean · February 11, 2013 7:10 pm

Again I'm from another planet...I've never really thought of Sherlock as sabotaging John's relationships...I suspect the young ladies all just get p--d off with him and John's loyalty to him.

Last edited by besleybean (February 11, 2013 7:22 pm)

besleybean · February 11, 2013 7:23 pm

I completely believed it.
To him it was boring trivia.