BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » whats your favourite part of this episode??

kazza474 · January 9, 2013 7:41 am

besleybean wrote:
I personally think The Pool is where Sherlock is first confronted with his feelings for John.
I believe the whole of his behaviour shows this.
Granted it's coupled with realising just what a menace Moriarty really is...but I think he'd maybe got that bit already.

You think?
He's standing in a closed building with a man wearing a coatful of explosives & snipers aiming at both of them and you think he's acting the way he does because he realises his feeling for the other man???!!!
Oh come on please.........

Davina · January 9, 2013 12:32 pm

Such situations would obviously be the moment to think about such matters.

Priorities- right. Sherlock states earlier that empathising with victims does not help them. Sure, this is his friend, John, but Moriarty would be doing this to up the ante and to test his mettle. Would Sherlock let this interfere with his thought processes? Really? If it did I would be very disappointed in him.

This has gone off track and into The Great Game territory.

kazza474 · January 9, 2013 12:35 pm

Very well observed Davina!

besleybean · January 9, 2013 5:04 pm

Apologies.
It was early and I hadn't a clue what thread I was on.

Mattlocked · January 9, 2013 5:19 pm

kazza474 wrote:
besleybean wrote:
I personally think The Pool is where Sherlock is first confronted with his feelings for John.
I believe the whole of his behaviour shows this.
Granted it's coupled with realising just what a menace Moriarty really is...but I think he'd maybe got that bit already.
You think?
He's standing in a closed building with a man wearing a coatful of explosives & snipers aiming at both of them and you think he's acting the way he does because he realises his feeling for the other man???!!!
Oh come on please.........

In fact, I agree with besley. To me the "key-scene" was when Sherlock VERY quickly helped John out of the "bomb-jacket"....
And when he wanted to thank John for his action agains Moriarty. You can clearly see that he wanted to thank him, but just didn't know how, because he isn't used to do those things.

besleybean · January 9, 2013 5:34 pm

Thanks, but we're gonna get shouted at again for being on wrong thread. Hey, at least I had the excuse, when I had just got out of bed!

holmes23 · January 9, 2013 7:47 pm

Sorry for writing on the wrong thread. But can't it be excused as a defence for my reason to choose the graveyard scene in THOB as my favourite?

kazza474 wrote:
I would have thought the reason he 'protected' John in those scenes was partly for his own self preservation rather tha any sentimental reasons.
And let's face it; he doesn't want to see someone get killed. He would do that for anyone I daresay.

If this is the case, then it would be so disappointing

Because I have a feeling that this line of thinking renders a diametrically opposite interpretation to Sherlock's character. Sherlock 's words then holds nothing but simply a means of manipulation and same is applicable to his parting words in TRF(how horrific )

He is then what we are supposed to believe him to be - "a cold, calculating machine", one who gives a damn about emotions and feelings.

But isn't the revelation of that "depth of loyalty and love which lay behind that cold mask" which makes him appealing? ....... ok, conceding .. at least part of his appeal?

And aren't the pool scene and the scene with the CIA men more likely and suitable for such revelations?

(can't help referring to The Three Garridebs and this will also prove that Sherlock never allows his thought process to be compromised even at the expense of his affection for John

Davina wrote:
....... Sure, this is his friend, John, but Moriarty would be doing this to up the ante and to test his mettle. Would Sherlock let this interfere with his thought processes? Really? If it did I would be very disappointed in him......

In the story, he is more than wise enough not to attend the wounded Watson first, but to subdue the villain first. He didn't even kill that villain, though stupid readers like me wanted him to do so )

It may be said that unlike in the story, here their friendship is in the inchoate stage and is unlikely to elicit such an emotion in Sherlock.
But think of John. He even killed a person for the sake of Sherlock and was ready to sacrifice even his life for Sherlock. He is a friend whose motto as far as Sherlock is concerned seems to be "When you like, and where you like'. There is no deception in him. He is a genuine person. He cares about Sherlock deeply, "and Sherlock Holmes is a very lucky man" to have got such a friend.

So doesn't a person like John deserve such moments of revelation from someone who's reticent about his feelings?

If he doesn't and he is just a convenient 'friend'(The Skull) cum asssistant to Sherlock, I'm so disillusioned

Last edited by holmes23 (January 9, 2013 7:58 pm)

kazza474 · January 10, 2013 3:58 am

Mattlocked wrote:
In fact, I agree with besley. To me the "key-scene" was when Sherlock VERY quickly helped John out of the "bomb-jacket"....
And when he wanted to thank John for his action agains Moriarty. You can clearly see that he wanted to thank him, but just didn't know how, because he isn't used to do those things.

Err .... the guy was about to get his family jewels blown off by a jacket; along with anyone standing nearby. They had to do it fast. No time for sentiment.
And yes, he's not used to saying thank you, that's a given.

kazza474 · January 10, 2013 4:23 am

holmes23 wrote:
kazza474 wrote:
I would have thought the reason he 'protected' John in those scenes was partly for his own self preservation rather tha any sentimental reasons.
And let's face it; he doesn't want to see someone get killed. He would do that for anyone I daresay.
If this is the case, then it would be so disappointing

Because I have a feeling that this line of thinking renders a diametrically opposite interpretation to Sherlock's character. Sherlock 's words then holds nothing but simply a means of manipulation and same is applicable to his parting words in TRF(how horrific )

He is then what we are supposed to believe him to be - "a cold, calculating machine", one who gives a damn about emotions and feelings.

But isn't the revelation of that "depth of loyalty and love which lay behind that cold mask" which makes him appealing? ....... ok, conceding .. at least part of his appeal?

And aren't the pool scene and the scene with the CIA men more likely and suitable for such revelations? ...................

If you want to turn perfectly logical & rational behaviour into some kind of mushy bromance story, go for it.
But as far as I am concerned, in the story thus far when this happened the urgency of getting the danger away from John was more to do with preservation of life for all in the immediate vicinity. It's common sense, you do not dally around when there's a bomb attached to someone or there are gunmen pointing guns at people.
YES Sherlock IS very manipulative & a cold calculating machine . Have you conveniently forgotten the delaying of rescuing the old woman just so he could get a step ahead of the bomber? His lines " does caring save people?" etc etc.

At this stage they have only known each other 3 months. Yet you expect us to believe a man like Sherlock has formed a 'depth of loyalty and love" ?????
That may appeal to you, but logic appeals to me.
"Sentimentalise him at your peril". You were warned, lol

besleybean · January 10, 2013 7:17 am

Ok. so we are allowed to talk about this here, then?
Right, once again, maybe this is a matter of emphasis and perception and possibly requires some subtlety and depth.
I'm not talking about extremes.
I shall try and be more descriptive about how I 1st saw this scene and let's see if it makes my position any clearer.
Because I don't think it's a matter of right or wrong.
Backdrop: Sherlock thinks he's successfully thrown John off the scent and got rid of him off to Sarah's.
Now I don't know whether he does this to protect John, or whether he just wanted a moment of glory alone.
Ok at The Pool.
John walks in: we all nearly fall off our chairs and I wonder if Sherlock internally gasps too?
Is he as puzzled as us?
Does he momentarily think John is Moriarty and is he actually quite impressed?
Then he sees the vest.
From therein, I personally have never seen Sherlock so shaken to date.
He can barely focus on Moriarty he is so concerned about John, to me actually almost looks tearful.
We know he virtually rips the vest from John.
I personally think Sherlock has little care for his own safety, he's not afraid of death.He accepts it as a necessary risk. For himself.
He is clearly rattled before Moriarty reappears and yes we have the friendship bonding moment over the joke.
Maybe it is the sudden realisation of the real demented nature of Moriarty...but I think this may have hit Sherlock already.
I also think the friendship bonding thing happened with the return of John's stick.
Possibly it's all just the gradual humanisation of Sherlock.
Yet he never does lose focus from the work.
As soon as Moriarty returns(and the threat), he is back in business.
He seeks John's permission to take the best course of action...
I'm not talking about soppiness or long meaning looks. I'm talking about a gut wrenching instinct that brings Sherlock up short. Just for a moment.
He's never felt this before.
Apart from anything else, this fits in with the whole Moriarty arc.
John is Sherlock's weakness and Moriarty knows this too.
Get Sherlock? Get at John.
From this moment, I knew Andrew's Scott's time was coming to an end,. because there wasn't a whole lot more Moriarty could throw at Sherlock.

Last edited by besleybean (January 10, 2013 7:19 am)

kazza474 · January 10, 2013 7:20 am

besleybean wrote:
Ok. so we are allowed to talk about this here, then?
........

Nah just post it; if you talk, we won't hear you & they might come & lock you up.

besleybean · January 10, 2013 7:22 am

kazza474 · January 10, 2013 8:02 am

Oh? You're still here? Good, they didn't hear you then.

OK.
Bezzles, thank you for a more rational post on the matter. By which I mean the words you have used are less 'intense' and possible illustrate what others are saying.

He can barely focus on Moriarty he is so concerned about John, to me actually almost looks tearful.

Hmmm, yeah but geez, the guy's trying to work out how best to get that thing out of the equation. I don't think it's tearful so much as trying to concentrate on what Moriarty is doing & at the same time working out his own plan of action. Possibly up to this point he's not had anything quite so 'dramatic' to deal with; remember he is a YOUNG Holmes here.

Maybe it is the sudden realisation of the real demented nature of Moriarty...but I think this may have hit Sherlock already.

I think the insanity thing is just coming through to him now; "this guy's a complete whack job." So he's got a few things now to consider:
1. How to keep John safe; how to get that vest off him; how to stop the bomb?
2. What's Moriarty doing as he walks around; what's he saying, etc?
3. How do you deal with a complete nutcase?

His brain is in overdrive.

Possibly it's all just the gradual humanisation of Sherlock. Yet he never does lose focus from the work.

Oh yes, that goes on throughout the first 2 seasons of the show. It's gradual - it's called maturing.

But you continue to say it's a feeling he has for John; no-one else, just John.
So I put it to you, what would have happened if that had been Lestrade in the vest at the pool? (Remembering their relationship at the time of this story)

*sigh* Yes yes, Davs, I know... off topic but look around, not too many threads stay 'on topic' here & most end up in the same 'theme' anyway. At least this one's a discussion and not a scrapbook.

Mattlocked · January 10, 2013 9:38 am

kazza474 wrote:
Oh? You're still here? Good, they didn't hear you then.

OK.
Bezzles, thank you for a more rational post on the matter. By which I mean the words you have used are less 'intense' and possible illustrate what others are saying.

Just let me point out that it is for me also a "language problem" to express my thoughts properly sometimes and that I never talk about "love" or something similar in this case. Deep friendship maybe, but not sure if in this scene already.
Stil..... as far as I understand everyting I fully agree with besley again.

I know, I know, we all heard this more than once, but may I quote another important sentence at this place:
Sherlock Holmes: I have been reliably informed that I don't have one.
Jim Moriaty: But we both know that's not quite true.

Davina · January 10, 2013 12:45 pm

Hello you lot . Was just observing, not shouting .
Throwing this one in then. Is Sherlock particularly shaken because John is willing to sacrifice his life for him? He has already killed to save his life and now...the ultimate sacrifice.

There it goes...splash!

kazza474 · January 10, 2013 1:02 pm

Ahh, similar to Sherlock, John simply has a sense of what is right.
Again, let's put Lestrade there, would John act the same way by grabbing Moriarty & telling Lestrade to run?

I think so.

Davina · January 10, 2013 1:19 pm

Yes, I agree. He is a combat trained soldier (albeit a medic as well). I am sure he would have acted in exactly the same way.

Mattlocked · January 10, 2013 2:59 pm

I think so, too. But I thought we were talking about Sherlock.....

What might calm you down a bit is that I definitely recognized Sherlock's acting in TBB. He tried really hard to help Sarah out of her situation, and not only while she was directly threatened by the arrow, even after the worst was over. AND he told her it's alright. So you are right, he wouldn't do that not only for John. Even for one of Johns girlfriends - which he doesn't really like, as we all know.

holmes23 · January 10, 2013 3:57 pm

I don't deny the fact that my post simply gives the impression of a 'mushy bromance story'. How I just wish to blame the Guy Ritchie films and all those tumblrs. And until now I believed that Sherlock too was blamable .

But the truth is that being sentimental I am, the thought that Sherlock is basically a lonely person makes me sad.. So I feel happy when I know that there are people who care about him. I am very thankful to them. Not only to John, but to Mrs.Hudson, Lestrade and Molly. I would love to see their caring get reciprocated. So here in this case, I just get tempted to interpret THE INCIDENTS in John's favor, but

kazza474 wrote:
........ the guy's trying to work out how best to get that thing out of the equation. I don't think it's tearful so much as trying to concentrate on what Moriarty is doing & at the same time working out his own plan of action. Possibly up to this point he's not had anything quite so 'dramatic' to deal with; remember he is a YOUNG Holmes here.

I think the insanity thing is just coming through to him now; "this guy's a complete whack job." So he's got a few things now to consider:................

That seems to be the truth.

Anyway I believe that when he says, "I don't have friends..I have only got one" he is speaking the truth. I liked the ambiance too.. .So, it still remains as my favorite scene

besleybean · January 10, 2013 5:11 pm

Isn't this all brilliant? God and people wonder why we love talking Sherlock: there is so much in it. TOP TV. They don't know what they are missing!
Thank you Davina for giving us dispensation and as has been shown, we need to cite different episodes.
I think I agree with certainly most of what has been said, which is what I meant about there possibly being different angles to the same thing.
Ok, to try and take up the challenges.
Sarah 1st: I entirely agree. I think Sherlock's treatment of her is admirable. I always use this to disprove anybody trying to say Sherlock doesn't like women. I am bound to say there may at least be an iota of 'because she's important to John'. But I do actually think Sherlock is a very honourable man,. I think he feels particularly sorry for Sarah, because she was an accidental victim.
Lestrade: ok, I'll indulge the fantasy for the moment. Yes Sherlock would have wanted to save Lestrade. Anything else we don't know, cos we haven't been shown it.
But the point IS: Moriarty doesn't choose Lestrade, he chooses John. If he'd wanted Lestrade, he could have got him. He chooses John, because he suspects he will be more significant to Sherlock. Or hang on, I'll actually be more concessionary here. Maybe it was completely random that Moriarty happened to get John, cos he got lucky and John just happened to be available.
But boy did Moriarty hit the jackpot, The heart line to me is a definite reference of Moriarty realising John was the key for Sherlock.
Moriarty learnt and boy was he gonna remember and use that weakness against Sherlock in future.
Now I have tried to reasonable, so may I ask questions myself?
Do we not think John is Sherlock's best friend?
Do we not think Sherlock has never had a friend like John before?
If we think John is the only(or most) significant friend Sherlock has had in his life: did Shelock realise this gradually, or does he have some Gestallt moments of insight like at the Pool.
Incidentally, I agree with everything that was said about Sherlock's thought process.
THE moment of realisation for me is after the vest is removed and before Sherlock goes after Moriarty.
He looks at John and to me it's : Hell. I have only just found another human being who I actually care about and can tolerate having around,and I just nearly lost him.
This is serious now, it's no longer a game.

Last edited by besleybean (January 10, 2013 5:13 pm)