besleybean wrote:

....BBC Sherlock was NOT written to facilitate slash fantasies, that happened quite by accident.

Yeah, but I disagree, which was my point a few minutes ago. I think those writers know exactly what they're doing. As do the actors. The episodes are all so carefully crafted; I don't think anything that makes the final cut is an accident.

To start with, I was confused by the ' gay thing'.But once you study it and follow it through, you realise it is just the joke that everybody else seems to assume they are gay.  This is greatly facilitated both by Sherlock not having any active relationships and by John being not totally certain about Sherlock and relationships.

IMO there's more to it than that. Sherlock stands there mute and never pooh poohs or argues with anyone who makes assumptions about him and John. John splutters and protests but finally kind of gives up. Yes, it's played for humor, but because of the writers' and actors' skill, somehow they make it look so plausible. I've read quite a few slash fan fics where John especially finally stops protesting, opens his eyes, says "why not?" to himself and allows himself to "go there", as it were. I don't believe we'll ever see that in BBC canon, but still and all, both writers and actors have fully set up the whole domestic scenario in such a way that they could be taken there, very easily, if anyone made the decision to do so.

It's a deliberate joke that is supposed to be played on those who do not fully understand the series.
Any die hard fans are fully in on the joke and roll their eyes at casual viewers(who don't know the Canon) who say: are they a gay couple?

But the writers even have the other cast members wondering! It isn't just casual viewers left wondering, but Irene, Mrs. Hudson, John's girlfriends and others are not only left wondering, but some of them are absolutely convinced that, deny it or not, S/J are a couple. Perhaps a celibate couple, but a couple nonetheless.

besleybean wrote:

Indeed you are perfectly correct, which was my whole point.
Continuing in making points: I believe there is fanart/fic world and Canon world and never the twain shall meet.
This isn't  a personal preference thing I should explain.
If Mark and Steven had written a full on gay romp, I would have been cheering at the sidelines.
But they haven't, they are sticking to Canon and doing so beautifully, I may add.
I'm not complaining, I have a computer and an imagination.
As Steven has said in interview: others are free to interpret the relationship as more, but they never wrote it that way.

You are so very correct here.
Canon is canon, it cannot be changed.
These days comradery is called ''a bromance. Why we need that word is a mystery to me; it has nothing to do with romance.
The comradery between Holmes & Watson is legendary and lasts in basically the same form throughout all the tales of Sherlock Holmes.
Gatiss & Moffat will keep it that way thankfully. They have said as much; they also said in their earliest interviews that there was never any intent to seriously include gay theme in this series. But a small joke here & there which mimics the changing of attitudes from then until now were added. In Victorian days, no-one would have ever given a moments thought to 2 men residing together. Now, for some inexplicable reason we have this childish mentality of 'they must be gay' within society. It's utter trash as far as I am concerned. Totally detracts from the brilliance of the stories. The jokes were just light hearted throw away lines. Red herrings really, but there are always enough alley cats these days to gobble them up & make a feast of them instead of focusiing n the main course.

I recall both Ben & Martin commenting on how gross the suggestions were that they had seen online; it was never their initial intent either.
Since then they have become silent on the issue really; why knock publicity in any form until you know you have a solid hit on your hands at least. Let people think what they like as long as they are watching.

There is no such thing as a 'full on gay romp' in popular TV or film and never will be. So if that had have happened with ANY show, it would have been a death knell anyway.

As for when will Sherlock ever stop fighting any romantic urges; never. He wouldn't be Sherlock Holmes then.

oh yes, these were as I said, very early on ones. I distinctly recall Ben's reaction to them, followed by Martin's.
With Moffat, he basically wiped them aside as nonsense & Gatiss with his ever playful smirks etc didn't give them much credit either.
But as I said, as the series grew in popularity, the section of audience that would start screaming 'slash time' and all that are also those who voice their opinions through the internet (there are many more who don't) and so are the most visible and cannot be swept aside by the creators. This means of course they will 'play along' if it keeps that section of fans happy.
It's little wonder that they all enjoy lengthy hiatuses to let some of the hysteria abate.

kazza474 wrote:

These days comradery is called ''a bromance. Why we need that word is a mystery to me; it has nothing to do with romance.

Same to me. Actually I don´t like the word "bromance", it sounds ugly to me. But okay, I am not a native speaker, maybe that´s the reason for my kind of "language feeling". But I really don´t like that word as description of the relationship between Sherlock and John.

Edit: Benedict Cumberbatch once said in an interview that he was really surprised about hearing that there was a lot of so-called secondary literature from (I think) the 60s on, kind of more or less scientific literature in which writers try to find out the "hidden homosexuality" in ACDs canon. He had never heard of that before. And this is for me the only reason for bringing these jokes about John and Sherlock being a couple: Gatiss and Moffat reference this secondary literature with a permanent eye wink. They do it like they also reference Billy Wilder´s film or a scene of a James Bond film which was never aired (the underground with the dead bodies) and so on. This is quite funny but nothing more. Just a wink, so of course deliberate but not in the sense of leaving that possibility really open.

Last edited by anjaH_alias (December 23, 2012 12:23 pm)

Ha!

besleybean wrote:

Do you think it does abate?
I think it increases.
Having said that, seeing some other fandoms...we are actually not the worst!

For the actors & writers it abates; they are busy attracting attention elsewhere so they won't see that much of it really. For 'us' I guess it just goes on and on like a chinese whispers game, lol!

I wouldn't know how bad other fandoms get, I don't get into all that. I glance through tumblr; keep the same basic interests in Twitter etc & leave it at that. Most of my browsing for Sherlock related stuff steers well clear of fangirling. I actually don't even look very often at all at fangirl threads here!

kazza474 wrote:

Once again you take my words & twist them to be directed at you. Your choice but not my intent nor have I ever labelled someone with the terms you've applied to yourself. It was simply a descriptive paragraph to illustrate how I think these things come about. All written with no particular target in mind. There's plenty of room for all ideas in this thread; no-one is removing them. Each member can post their thoughts; if you take them as being some kind of directive, again... your choice I guess.

Really? You can't see why this language ... childish mentality of 'they must be gay'...It's utter trash...there are always enough alley cats these days to gobble them up & make a feast of them... would seem inflammatory to someone who's publicly expressed an interest in Johnlock and in Sherlock fan fic and fan art? I did not need to twist anything; what you said was plainly stated and quite clear. Hey, I don't need your or anyone else's approval, but a little respect and live-and-let-live on this public forum would be nice.

My apologies to the thread for going off topic. Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Kazza: All written with no particular target in mind.
Besley: any or all of us...

Very specific  keeps you on the safe side 
If you mean someone, say it, if you mean someone far behind the horizon, why bother this board?

Last edited by Harriet (December 24, 2012 10:03 am)

Exactly besleybean - "what we think" - us as individual members. I've posted my thoughts in a very specific way; changing the order of words changes their meanings.
Look, this IS an open forum where all are welcome to express their views. I have not and will never address any member in a derogatory tone. My ideas & words on situations & mindsets may well be somewhat derogatory but that merely reflects my dislike of those things.
Take it or leave it; I can give you a very long list of forums you don't want to attempt to use if you think my posts here are in anyway attacks on people!

Back on topic: The experience of both Moffat and Gatiss along with their vow to preserve the canon's ideals will keep this show on track for years to come. No doubt there will be other times when the question of 'has Sherlock fallen in love' will crop up. But I'd hazard a guess they may stray away from the gay in-joke for a while now.
Recall that there was a time when Holmes faked being in love, even to the stage of becoming engaged. They could stretch that across a whole series just to tease the audience and still stay true to the canon.

So say all of us!