BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Discussions on the John and Sherlock relationship

Harriet · December 21, 2012 8:14 am

People who know the absolute truth tend to either frighten or amuse me

Reapsher · December 21, 2012 11:11 am

besleybean wrote:
So some of you seriously think we are going to see Sherlock and John in a sexual relationship? Cos that's what Johnlock means to me and I stand by my previous comments. Ain't gonna happen,

I'm not saying that, but you stated that John getting married is going to happen, and I disagree with that statement because it's not made certain yet as clearly said by the writers themselves in an interview available on YouTube

anjaH_alias · December 21, 2012 1:41 pm

Reapsher wrote:
I noticed that out there on the internet, there are a lot of people hoping that in this modern version, they might actually come together.
I am conflicted with that.
.....

Well that's my opinion. Right now I really don't care what will happen because I just enjoy watching those hilarious moments between them and I hope they won't take that away!

I think this is more or less wishful thinking then. And I also don´t think this will ever happen.
First of all John and Sherlock weren´t a couple in the canon. So, yes, it´s right, Moffat and Gatiss are modernizing a lot, but being not a couple doesn´t mean being a couple after modernization, or ;-))? They just use all these little jokes to reference to the interpretations which were made decades later (decades after the books were published). And they are definetely great fun, here I agree. But - just a game, a wink to the referees.....
Steven Moffat/Mark Gatiss once said in an interview that Sherlock would never live together with a man if he is really interested in men. That would too much distract him. And they also explain the sentence of Irene Adler - ´look at us both´ - in the audio comments: Also here they didn´t mean it in any romantic relationship allusion: Irene Adler is talking about ´move` ;-)), a word Mark Gatiss creates during that comment, a short form for `man-love´ which has absolutely no sexual or romantic connotation to them. But means a pure true deep men-friendship....
Therefore they stress at another place that they like to establish John as a womanizer, that they love this idea, and obviously they had already started with this. So to me it´s much more likely that he will marry someone. Besides that I think he has already left Baker Street, remember one of the last scenes of episode 6 where he told Mrs. Hudson that he is not able to go back to 221B for the moment, and somewhere he must live then! Mrs. Hudson is already packing Sherlock´s stuff together. (According to the canon Mycroft prevents that in the end). This is not a place where John Watson likes to go back to live on his own, I assume.
We don´t know yet how much time passes in the films, between episode 6 and 7 - I don´t think (or better: I hope, please no other delay!) it will be three years like in the books because this means episode 7 takes place in the future then ;-)). And Moffat/Gatiss always made the stories happening in the particular presence. So very likely (but of course not sure, could be shorter) they are separated as long as we wait for episode 7. Sad idea to me, by the way, poor John. But enough time to marry, for instance. Or to be busy with own little adventures and riddles, as John Watson does in the canon, inspired by his former colleague. We will see what happens.....

Last edited by anjaH_alias (December 21, 2012 1:48 pm)

Mnemosyne · December 21, 2012 2:39 pm

Like I said in a similar post a while back: John and Sherlock share a bond that is so rare that most people wouldn't even know what to call it if they cared to name it. The idea of 'The Thousandth Man' came up. KeepersPrice I believe you put the whole thing up here (hope link works): http://sherlock.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?pid=42338#p42338

This is love, without a doubt, but we all know that we can love someone deeply and completely without wanting to get into their pants.

Having said that I really enjoy the in-jokes that poke fun at the apparently ambiguous status of their relationship and how other characters and entities (like newspapers) interpret their relationship in an age where these two men could be in a relationship together (as it was illegal at the time the canon was written.)

Would I accept a romantic relationship between these two characters? Of course. It would be fascinating (and most likely very well written in this case.)

Is it going to happen? Erm... No. Probably not. A combination of the writers having a painfully keen awareness of the demographic they write for and an overwhelming desire to honour the canon.

Has it crossed the writers' minds? Undoubtedly. Otherwise the references would not be in the script.

Is there going to be more 'bromance' and a deepening of the friendship we saw blossom between these two characters in Series 3? You can bet your life on it! Now they know their audience they will push it as far as they can without getting either letters of complaint (from sad people who fetch their 'pen-o-rage' every time something offends their delicate sensibilities on screen.) Or without putting in a caption that reads 'Tumblr, this is for you guys '

besleybean · December 21, 2012 4:43 pm

Just this.

KeepersPrice · December 21, 2012 4:54 pm

besleybean wrote:
But it's not hints or innuendos.
They are not in a relationship nor ever will be.
It's just still the fun thing of other people thinking they are gay.
I will be surprised if we do not see John married.

When I say "hints and innuendos" I don't mean that the writers are hinting that the characters are already in a romantic physical relationship they aren't showing us or telling us about, or even that it's something they are thinking about showing us somewhere down the line Not at all. What I mean is that they are leaving room to consider that there might be any number of conflicted emotions and feelings below the surface that neither character is recognizing or thinking about consciously, but that occasionally bubble up to the surface in moments of stress. These are emotions that will probably never be resolved and which may defy catagorization, but are fun to explore. (Although I will say there has certainly been a co-dependent element established between them, which already seems to take their relationship beyond a friendship level) . Anyway, my enjoyment (along with a million other things about the show) comes from the emotional side-stepping and tension I believe we've been shown in the first two series. Irene says they're a couple and I agree - perhaps an odd couple, but a couple none the less.

besleybean · December 21, 2012 5:06 pm

I think they're a couple, too. But not in the traditional sense.
Sexuality wise: writers and actor seem to think Sherlock is asexual. But then Benedict and Steven both thought he was attracted to Irene.
John has had a string of girlfriends, is always chatting up available females and is generally considered a ' ladies man'...tho I confess I hate that expression.
I think both men in their 30s would be fairly settled in their sexual preferences, by now.
I also think if they'd been going to get together, it would have happened by now.
As Steven says: why does it have to be all about sex?
I don't think anything exceeds a beautiful close. loving male friendship. This is bromance at it's best.

tobeornot221b · December 21, 2012 5:30 pm

besleybean wrote:
Sexuality wise: writers and actor seem to think Sherlock is asexual.

I've read somewhere that Moffat said Sherlock wasn't asexual but had chosen that celibate way of life for himself - like a monk would do. His work was more important to him than physical relationships.

besleybean · December 21, 2012 5:35 pm

Wish would be more fitting with his attraction to Irene.

harleyq · December 21, 2012 7:09 pm

besleybean wrote:
I don't think anything exceeds a beautiful close. loving male friendship. This is bromance at it's best.

I agree. It's a rare thing on tv these days and when done right it's a joy to watch.

besleybean · December 21, 2012 7:10 pm

And BBC Sherlock is the best.

SusiGo · December 21, 2012 8:14 pm

tobeornot221b wrote:
besleybean wrote:
Sexuality wise: writers and actor seem to think Sherlock is asexual.
I've read somewhere that Moffat said Sherlock wasn't asexual but had chosen that celibate way of life for himself - like a monk would do. His work was more important to him than physical relationships.

Which agrees with him saying that he always managed to keep himself distant and divorce himself from feelings. This would indicate a deliberate choice.

besleybean · December 21, 2012 8:21 pm

So wonder when he'll decide he no longer wishes to make this choice.

SusiGo · December 21, 2012 8:28 pm

When or if? I mean, he did show some feelings in series 2.

besleybean · December 21, 2012 8:32 pm

Yep.

ancientsgate · December 22, 2012 12:29 am

harleyq wrote:
besleybean wrote:
I don't think anything exceeds a beautiful close. loving male friendship. This is bromance at it's best.
I agree. It's a rare thing on tv these days and when done right it's a joy to watch.

And gives all the slash fan fic writers and artists a world of fodder for their work, which in turn pleases the slash appreciators (like me). Those who would rather not see "anything more" in the actual show don't have to, and people like me, who do want more, can dive into the fabulous fan fic and fan art world and get all the romance they want. Best of both worlds, IMO.

KeepersPrice · December 22, 2012 3:12 am

besleybean wrote:
So wonder when he'll decide he no longer wishes to make this choice.

When the right person (male or female) comes along who makes him reconsider that choice; and so far, the only person who has come close to breaking through to him emotionally and with whom he has a decided level of comfort and trust is John.

BTW, if we're going by canon, we will never see Sherlock Holmes in any kind relationship other than what he has going with John Watson - call it what you will. In canon there is mention of a close friend named Trevor when he was in Uni and then there's the Irene Adler thing, but I don't believe there's ever been anyone else - but please correct me if I'm wrong.

besleybean · December 22, 2012 8:31 am

Indeed you are perfectly correct, which was my whole point.
Continuing in making points: I believe there is fanart/fic world and Canon world and never the twain shall meet.
This isn't a personal preference thing I should explain.
If Mark and Steven had written a full on gay romp, I would have been cheering at the sidelines.
But they haven't, they are sticking to Canon and doing so beautifully, I may add.
I'm not complaining, I have a computer and an imagination.
As Steven has said in interview: others are free to interpret the relationship as more, but they never wrote it that way.

Last edited by besleybean (December 22, 2012 8:32 am)

ancientsgate · December 22, 2012 1:31 pm

besleybean wrote:
....I believe there is fanart/fic world and Canon world and never the twain shall meet....

I've never looked to see if it exists, but there's no reason why someone couldn't write slash stories about the original pairing, set in those times. Any gay romance fan fic featuring the original S and J would be just as legit as any written around the BBC canon, but of course they'd have to be way more closeted in any story set in that era.

As Steven has said in interview: others are free to interpret the relationship as more, but they never wrote it that way.

They never wrote it NOT that way either. S/J are written in such a way as to deliberately give viewers who want to see the potential slash all the fodder they need to imagine a deeper/different relationship between the two of them. Why else the constant questioning from other characters, "Are you gay? Are you a couple? There's a second bedroom, IF you need it. I'll get a candle for the table-- more romantic that way!" This is a recurring theme in all the episodes, right from the pilot through TRF, and I presume it's all deliberate. Must be.

besleybean · December 22, 2012 1:48 pm

Initially:well I wasn't implying people couldn't write a slash version of anything...they are perfectly entitled to do so.
I was meaning the Canon isn't slash, as it stands.
On the 2nd point, I'm sorry, I disagree...kind of!
BBC Sherlock was NOT written to facilitate slash fantasies, that happened quite by accident.
To start with, I was confused by the ' gay thing'.
But once you study it and follow it through, you realise it is just the joke that everybody else seems to assume they are gay. This is greatly facilitated both by Sherlock not having any active relationships and by John being not totally certain about Sherlock and relationships.
It's a deliberate joke that is supposed to be played on those who do not fully understand the series.
Any die hard fans are fully in on the joke and roll their eyes at casual viewers(who don't know the Canon) who say: are they a gay couple?