BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012.


You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?



September 14, 2012 4:11 am  #1


Feminism, Misogyny, Equality and all things related

I thought we might try & keep a separate thread regarding this topic. I will transfer a few posts from another thread to here to help keep the conversation going on the same tracks so people don't have to repeat themselves.

I will just post the main ideas please do not be offended if anything get missed.
................................................................................

Ivy wrote:

There are really deranged people out there! (not that this is something new!)

Amanda Abbington tweeted this after she defended Steven Moffat and is now getting death threats! I have no words!

Right. After this long winded tweet, I am putting this to bed once and for all. I am now receiving death threats. Some people want to kill me because I stuck up for a friend. Death threats. I mean, really? Are you serious? Some nameless, faceless cowards actually want me to die. What a wonderful world we live in. And all because of this: I don’t think Steven Moffat a misogynist. I don’t think he is a homophobe. What he is, is a thoroughly decent man, who, in my opinion, writes high quality drama that is hugely popular and continues to win awards. In my opinion. What I witnessed the other week was cyber-bullying at its most rampant.
Now, I consider myself a feminist. I am the first to champion women and I happen to work in an incredibly male-dominated profession where good, challenging, stand-out women’s roles are still dwarfed by the huge amount of amazing men’s roles. And where women still have to fight to be taken seriously and keep their clothes on. I am also a mother, first and foremost and I juggle those two careers precariously. Women are made to feel guilty for having children, not having children, working for a living, getting married, staying single, usually by other women, I hasten to add. I have been a professional actor for nearly twenty years and in that time I have been on the receiving end of misogynist behaviour more times than you can possibly imagine. I was sticking up for a friend, who, I felt had been bullied.
Now, if you don’t like Doctor Who or Sherlock or indeed, any of Steven Moffat’s writing then don’t watch it. If it upsets you to the point of sending him death threats, then don’t watch it. Be constructive, please, of course, I am all for that but when that criticism turns ugly (and I stress, the stuff I read had become incredibly offensive) then constructive criticism goes out the window and it becomes very personal and frightening. Last time I checked, death-threats were not in the least bit constructive.
I have recently just tried to stick up for a young actress who was being harangued on Twitter. It amounts to the same thing. Faceless bullying again. And it is in no way constructive. I sincerely apologise if I came across too strong with some of you. Twitter tends to have that effect on people. The internet can be a fantastic place or Hell on earth. My reaction, in hindsight, may have been a knee-jerk reaction. Maybe that’s because I was horrendously bullied as a child and so any sort of injustice and cowardly attack is heightened to me. Or maybe, I was defending a friend who has contributed to British drama more than any one of the people who were cussing him last week. You see, you all have a remote control. You can always switch off. Just an idea…

........................................................................


Mattlocked wrote:

And this shall be the reason why Moffat has been called a misogynist.
Not sure if it's even worth posting it here, but maybe one or the other wants to read. (I stopped after having read the first quarter.)
I don't know exactly what she's talking about as I don't know DW. But anyway it seems to me........... hm, build your own opinion.

http://stfu-moffat.tumblr.com/post/30991164205/how-moffat-ruined-doctor-who-for-my-little-sister

Quote: You see, you all have a remote control. You can always switch off. Just an idea…

...........................................................................

Sam wrote:

Whether he is a misogynist or not, he should not be attacked so cruelly on a social media site. But, that's social media for you, that's never going to stop. Writing him personal letters would be more effective (though those could be very hateful too at least it's not in the public eye). People making death threats is just so stupid...

I read that girl's post Mattlocked. I don't watch DW either but the point with the Doctor's quote saying “She’s been brainwashed, it probably makes sense to her. Plus, she’s a woman. Oh, shut up!"  does seem inappropriate. She has sections on Sherlock which I went and read. She makes good points. The thing is, men do these kinds of things without realizing what they're doing. They don't mean to put down women and probably respect them in "real life". I think he should consult Sue or another female so he gets a female viewpoint, one he isn't familiar with, to help write the female characters. I don't think he's a misogynist but he should welcome female feedback more if not from the fans, then women close to him. Heck, maybe he does, I really don't know much about him. And that's the thing, I cannot make a proper judgement because I don't know him. I love Sherlock and he does some great writing. The female characters could use some work yes but that's still where we are right now in the world. Female characters could use some work in most shows/movies.

........................................................................

kazza474 wrote:

History of the misogynist tag worn by Moffat.
The latest & loudest misogynist tag came soon after Scandal aired; a British journalist published THIS in the Guardian on 3rd January this year. There was a huge response from both sides, Moffat was asked about it in several interviews & chat shows & most thought hopefully it has died down for a while.
I agree with some things she said but the conclusions and interpretations she drew from this were frankly those of a hysterical woman.

Why do woman have to play this ' I want to be equal' game? If you want to be equal, shut up & get on with life!

But in true 21st century style people keep jumping on old, retired bandwagons because they don't have the tenacity to make one of their own.

..........................................................................

Mattlocked wrote:

Some are really "obsessed" by the idea of belonging to a discriminated group. The reasons vary. So it's not easy to criticize them. He/she can be quite quick, thinking "Ah, that's only because I'm a woman", "Of course, because I'm blonde", "...because I am only the trainee", "...because I am overweight", "... because I'm black" and so on........
I think mostly it's a lack of self-confidence they have to work on!
Someone posted a similar thing somewhere here in another tread regarding criticizing "Elementary". When you do that, you are of course either a misogynist or hostile to foreigners. Just because Joan Watson is female and has Taiwanese roots.

That's why I stopped reading the blogger's post because I felt she was kind of overreacting on simple jokes.
A while ago jokes about blondes were very common here. So (as a blonde) I could have walked around being angry and offended.....or telling those jokes myself - what I did.
I don't care much if I make a mistake and some guy tells me: "Tsss, women!!" I confess I tell my male colleagues the same from time to time. "MEN!!"  Of course it depends how and to whom you say things like that.....

.

........................................................................................

Sam wrote:

Things don't change by shutting up. And we have a lot to change. Not referring to Moffat but in general.

Maybe the fact people keep talking about Moffat is old but feminism isn't.

.........................................................................................


Wholocked wrote:

Depends what you mean by feminism. A lot of people who nowadays call themselves feminists (and I don't mean 'all', just a lot) are pushing for women to have more rights than men, not equal rights. They assert their rights because they're a woman but don't have any issue with men being squashed in order to give them what they see as their due. Young women are becoming self-righteous, entitled, emasculating little bitches if you ask me ;)

ETA: Yes, I'm a woman. Yes, I believe in equality. But I believe in equality for ALL, not just some and certainly not just women.

.................................................................................

Ivy wrote:

Amen to that. Equality is the word!
Some women/girls are trying too hard. Just be youself and don't let yourself get screwed over.

..........................................................................


Davina wrote:

Depends also what you mean by 'equality'. If 'equality' equates to 'same' then we simply are not. If 'equality' means equality of opportunity and in treatment then that is a different matter. All people have the right to that regardless of gender, race, creed etc.

.................................................................................

Sam wrote:

Wholocked wrote:

.....................................

Yes, that is what I believe as well. Feminism to me is wanting equal rights for all genders and sexes. Yes, some take it too far but people take things too far in every aspect of life.

Davina wrote:

.....................

This is definitely what I mean. Opportunities/treatment. Ex. Women still get paid less than men with the same job title/position in the US (not sure about other countries). I don't want women to make more than men. Sex/gender shouldn't come into play when determining a salary. Neither should race, ethnicity, etc, but you know what I mean.

...................................................................................

Davina wrote:

Here we have Equal Pay legislation.

..............................................................................

The Doctor wrote:

In Australia, women still get paid significantly less pay for the same position as men.

Welcome to the Past!


____________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
 

September 14, 2012 4:28 am  #2


Re: Feminism, Misogyny, Equality and all things related

My own thoughts?

You get treated the way you allow others to treat you; whether you are male or female; whether you are Caucasian, Asian, African, etc; whether you are short or tall; whether you have red hair or blonde, etc etc. Apart from criminal acts, other peoples' actions toward you will be what YOU make them to be.
eg  A male mechanic overcharges me for a simple car service, I won't pay until he proves it was necessary. I've had a few back down, grumbling but I won, they lost. Rightly or wrongly? Who knows but they acted pretty guilty if you ask me.
eg Maybe at your work there is a chance of promotion but they only seem to be looking at the males, make a BIG point of handing in a professionally done CV and loudly announcing why you believe you are equally good at the job & how you could be an asset. You MUST mention that seeing as you are female you realised the male boss may have thought it wasn't a job for you & that is why you thought it best to set out clearly for HIM what your strong points were. Leave it there, don't get into a slinging match, you have dealt a strong blow already.

If you don't think it is fair that a certain job pays less for females than males, don't do the job. There are jobs that are gender neutral.

There are people all over the world hurting because of circumstances that are out of their control; they are happy to HAVE A LIFE.
Evolution has played a big part in how males & females interact with each other & themselves; it has played a part in how each body is different.
Females CANNOT physically do everything a male can do and vice versa.

Embrace WHAT you are and use it to your best ability and stop complaining about what you are NOT.


____________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, please note that sentences can also end in full stops. The exclamation mark can be overused.
Sherlock Holmes 28 March 13:08

Mycroft’s popularity doesn’t surprise me at all. He is, after all, incredibly beautiful, clever and well-dressed. And beautiful. Did I mention that?
--Mark Gatiss

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
Robert McCloskey
     Thread Starter
 

September 14, 2012 11:09 am  #3


Re: Feminism, Misogyny, Equality and all things related

Sounds right so far in theory, but:

If you don't think it is fair that a certain job pays less for females than males, don't do the job. There are jobs that are gender neutral.
At least in Germany this is not so easy to do, because you have to take what you get. Or you get nothing. 


__________________________________

"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
 

September 14, 2012 11:23 am  #4


Re: Feminism, Misogyny, Equality and all things related

I struggle to see the relevance of gender in academia, and yet there are huge salary differences between the sexes in science. So. Very. 1999.

 

September 14, 2012 4:28 pm  #5


Re: Feminism, Misogyny, Equality and all things related

kazza474 wrote:

Ooops. My own thoughts in reply, without going into details:
A bit not good...

Last edited by Harriet (September 14, 2012 4:36 pm)


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

September 14, 2012 8:17 pm  #6


Re: Feminism, Misogyny, Equality and all things related

kazza474 wrote:

My own thoughts?

You get treated the way you allow others to treat you; whether you are male or female; whether you are Caucasian, Asian, African, etc; whether you are short or tall; whether you have red hair or blonde, etc etc. Apart from criminal acts, other peoples' actions toward you will be what YOU make them to be.

Agreed. Will I stick up for myself? Yes, but that's not going to change laws.

If you don't think it is fair that a certain job pays less for females than males, don't do the job. There are jobs that are gender neutral. Evolution has played a big part in how males & females interact with each other & themselves; it has played a part in how each body is different.
Females CANNOT physically do everything a male can do and vice versa.

Yeah, there are jobs where men's and women's strengths come into play and maybe those are different circumstances. But for the rest, there usually is no reason for a difference in salary.

Embrace WHAT you are and use it to your best ability and stop complaining about what you are NOT.
There are people all over the world hurting because of circumstances that are out of their control; they are happy to HAVE A LIFE.

The world has been sexist since the dawn of man (generally speaking) so it's not like I'm thinking about this every day or letting it rule my life.The US has it really good compared to many places in the world - believe me, I know. I don't take anything for granted and am very pleased with my life. I'm just simply pointing things out, not complaining - though I guess it can be read as such.


----------------------------------------------------------------
SH: "Brilliant, Anderson."
Anderson: "Really?"
SH: "Yes. Brilliant impression of an idiot."
 

September 18, 2012 12:38 am  #7


Re: Feminism, Misogyny, Equality and all things related

I mostly agree with everything Kazza has said up above. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's right that you should have to make a big fuss to stick up for yourself. Davina's definition of equality is what I believe in. Men and woman are different. We are physically, mentally, and emotionally different. We are exposed to different ideas and different priorities as children thanks to the way peer groups work. Socially, a group of women has an entirely different dynamic than a group of men.

I had a long conversation about this with my brother recently. He was saying that women seem to think that men are the same as them in terms of friendship, support, encouragement etc. Women tend to stick up for each other, support & encourage each other. He was saying that with men, that's not the case. Men are competitive, egg each other on in a competitive rather than supportive/encouraging way.

Anyway I'm digressing a bit. My point is, there are differences between the genders and nothing we do or say will change that. However, both men and women should have the opportunities to excel in whatever area they are interested in, if they have the ability and aptitude. I don't want to be offered a job I've applied for because the company hasn't met it's female employee quota, I want to be offered the job because I'm the best person for the job regardless of gender. If I don't get the job, I expect it to be because whomever it is offered to had better experience/skills/qualifications/interview technique/whatever; not because of gender or any other demographic detail.

I have no idea if that was a coherent post at all...apologies!


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dislike being outnumbered. It makes for too much stupid in the room

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdmfsd8LI11rs9hrro1_400.gif
 

September 18, 2012 6:09 am  #8


Re: Feminism, Misogyny, Equality and all things related

Mattlocked wrote:

Sounds right so far in theory, but:

If you don't think it is fair that a certain job pays less for females than males, don't do the job. There are jobs that are gender neutral.
At least in Germany this is not so easy to do, because you have to take what you get. Or you get nothing. 

And sadly there are jobs that are done nearly exclusively by females and are usually badly paid (doctor's assistants, hairdressers, kindergarden teachers, carers in old people's homes, etc.). There are things you can change for yourself, but there have also to be changes to the system by way of new tariffs, laws, etc. And women shouldn't be punished for the fact that many of them prefer and like social jobs that are so fundamental to the functioning of a society.


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

September 18, 2012 10:15 am  #9


Re: Feminism, Misogyny, Equality and all things related

Also there is a stigma attached to men who try to enter such professions. Male nursery nurses, as an example, are often viewed with suspicion. Whilst these professions have so few men within them the wages received will remain depressed.

My philosophy is equal pay for equal work. Simple.

And as for the coverage of female sport...well!

Last edited by Davina (September 18, 2012 10:15 am)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdq1pcLCUR1rs9hrro1_500.jpg
 

October 1, 2012 4:15 am  #10


Re: Feminism, Misogyny, Equality and all things related

I agree mostly with what has been said so far in this thread. I don't agree with people who make themselves victims because of any given group that they belong to, and I'm not just saying that as a white person, I'm saying that as a Jew and a Female. Don't like discrimination? Fight it, not by ranting privately on tumblr but by actually getting out there and doing something about it; standing up to a misogynistic boss; spreading awareness; talking to people; expressing concerns to legislators/MPs. Thankfully, we've reached a point when, at least in 1st world countries, black people and women won't get shot, lynched, or raped for speaking up except in very extreme circumstances.

I also consider in regard to kazza's first few quotes: these are television shows. Nothing more, nothing less. Yes, maybe Steven Moffat has written in a few misogynistic lines. No, that's not good, buuuuuut...
It's just a television show. He's not a politician, and even if he were he wouldn't be going out and creating legislation that discriminates against women because it's not that kind of misogyny. It's just typical, eye-roll-worthy stupid sexism, the kind of stuff that I believe women should blow off unless it is pervasive and starts to encroach on their person. No, it's not pleasant, and it's not something that society as a whole should tolerate, but we can't do much except tell the specific men how stupid they're being and raise the next generation of boys to be more considerate to their female coworkers.

People should enjoy the art, (because films this good are art) without attacking the creators for lines they probably didn't really think about when they wrote. If they had, they would have edited them. And death threats? That's wrong. All different groups of people need to work together to achieve equality, and not by one group viciously attacking the other until they give in. Unless a group is so repressed, so beaten down, so discriminated against (read: women in Afghanistan, blacks in South Africa until recent decades, etc.) that they can do nothing in their own defence, this way is much preferable to hostility.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Initials SH and proud owner of a viola named Watson.

Potential flatmates should know the worst about each other.

It's a three patch problem.

I didn't know; I saw.
 

November 4, 2012 1:42 am  #11


Re: Feminism, Misogyny, Equality and all things related

Davina wrote:

My philosophy is equal pay for equal work. Simple.

A perfectly simple truth, summed up perfectly. Yet, it's amazing how it often doesn't play out that way in the real world. I think the opportunity should be accessible for anyone who chooses to try a particular field. Yet, I also think people have the right to find a personal comfort with a certain gender, say a female gynecologist instead of a male. Gender roles are hard to break, but I think we've come a long way and we'll continue to break and reshape those molds as we go.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a cash and carry world. You pay as you go. Sometimes it's a little. Mostly it's a lot. Sometimes it's all you have.
 

November 4, 2012 11:23 am  #12


Re: Feminism, Misogyny, Equality and all things related

Davina wrote:

My philosophy is equal pay for equal work. Simple.

*idles off wondering in how many decades this may be a reality in Australia*

 

November 4, 2012 11:27 am  #13


Re: Feminism, Misogyny, Equality and all things related

Or Britain!


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

November 4, 2012 11:47 pm  #14


Re: Feminism, Misogyny, Equality and all things related

Or we could just put women in binders, as suggested by our presidential candidate...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Initials SH and proud owner of a viola named Watson.

Potential flatmates should know the worst about each other.

It's a three patch problem.

I didn't know; I saw.
 

Board footera

 

Powered by Boardhost. Create a Free Forum