BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Did it all begin much earlier?

aWorldlyPhilosopher · October 18, 2012 5:55 pm

First...I would like to say I have really enjoyed reading the many brilliant theories on this forum, and the respectful, intelligent way in which they are discussed. I finally couldn't resist any longer, and registered to join the conversation.

Now, to my theory: it all started before we realized it did. In all the previous episodes, the important clues are given to us very early in the episode, so that we might catch a few hints along the way, and all of them upon re-watching. Moftiss knew we would all be focused on how SH survived the fall, and wanted to give us the clues without making it obvious on the second viewing. So like good magicians, they left clues where we weren't looking: the previous episode.

SH's out of character clue that "everyone has missed": SH calling Mycroft and asking for help in Hounds

Theory: SH let MH tell JM what he wanted to know and then release him in exchange for 24 hours of unlimited access to Baskerville.

Support:
1. When speaking to Major Barrymore, SH says: "You're to give me 24 hours. It's what I've [pause] negotiated." If not part of a clue, the pause and word choice of "negotiated" seem odd.
2. The HOUND gas worked on fear and stimulus. It took what people had been suggested and scared them with it. The first time SH was gassed, he saw the hound he had been conditioned to see. The second time, he saw JM because he knew he was about to come after him.

Would love to hear some reactions to my theory. If you think it is plausible, then I could share further observations about TRF that I have not seen discussed.

Thanks, and keep sleuthing!

besleybean · October 18, 2012 6:03 pm

Fascinating.
Loving your theories...
Tho funnily enough for me, it never has been the fake death I've concentrated on, I'm much more interested in the Reunion!
But please, tell me more,it's fun to speculate, in the Hiatus!

SusiGo · October 18, 2012 6:20 pm

Welcome, I'm very interested to hear more about your theories. One should keep in mind that the whole JM story starts in ASiP and only culminates in TRF. So there might be clues in earlier episodes that tend to be overlooked. Moriarty has targeted Sherlock from the very beginning and has told the cabbie personal things about him. Please let us know more about your ideas. And you may introduce yourself in our Introductions thread if you like.

veecee · October 18, 2012 7:04 pm

I appreciate your theory and backup for it.
However, I prefer to think Sherlock's work consists of more than just playing the game (wittingly or unwittingly) with Moriarty. Surely enough criminal activity takes place without JM"s involvement. I'd like to believe that Sherlock is doing more than just dancing to Moriarty's tune.
Do you think that The Speckled Blonde, The Greek Interpreter and The Aluminium Crutch cases were also instigated by JM?

Last edited by veecee (October 18, 2012 7:04 pm)

Sammy · October 18, 2012 10:02 pm

Oh, that's actually quite interesting, haven't thought of this before.
I don't think that the events at Baskerville (i.e. Sherlock investigating there) have anything to do with Moriarty, though.
Though, when I think about it, it maybe is a bit odd that Sherlock has a phone call with Mycroft in the episode we know Mycroft is interrogating Moriarty, because, well, they don't really communicate that often.
But the whole scene with Sherlock greeting his brother on the phone when he picks up is played for laughter, so I don't think a "funny scene" like that is in fact part of this dark scheme.

I think he may just have seen Moriarty at the hollow because he was genuinely afraid of him after the whole pool business (almost getting killed and stuff). Or, well, afraid is a strong word... but I guess it comes close.

Sherli Bakerst · October 18, 2012 11:59 pm

Very interesting theory, aWorldlyPhilosopher. Not something I thought of before but the way you lay it out makes sense. At least as much sense as other theories I've read--and more than some.

Your point about Sherlock using the word negotiated: When I heard that the second time I watched the episode--when I was paying more attention to everything--it struck me as odd. So maybe there is something more behind the words themselves.

NW16XE · October 19, 2012 12:23 am

Welcome to the forum! I think your theory is quite plausible; it seems very likely that Mycroft would do that sort of favor for his brother just so that Sherlock would owe him one in return.

Smoggy_London_Air · October 21, 2012 3:25 pm

This is a theory I never thought about. Props to you for thinking for it. I think it may have merit, but we won't find out until next year. (Unfortunately)

Ronny Dax · October 30, 2012 5:55 pm

Oh yes, please share some TRF observations with us! I am reading each one of them and would be pleased to hear yours.

Last edited by Ronny Dax (October 30, 2012 5:56 pm)

Tantalus · October 30, 2012 6:12 pm

WorldlyPhilosopher,

I think you're spot on. I will go on record right now saying that I believe what Sherlock negotiated with his brother was allowing Mycroft to use Sherlock as bait for capturing Moriarty. The "unusual" thing that Sherlock does, I believe, is allowing all the public acknowledgments of his success that we see in TRF, a tactic meant, of course, to lure Moriarty into action. That, with the added scene at the end of Hound with Moriarty, seems pretty suggestive. I'll be very surprised if you're not correct here.

Ronny Dax, does it make me a geek that I recognize your signature line as coming from ST: TNG? I loved that series, back when I actually watched telly! : )

aWorldlyPhilosopher · October 30, 2012 6:48 pm

Tantalus wrote:
WorldlyPhilosopher,

I think you're spot on. I will go on record right now saying that I believe what Sherlock negotiated with his brother was allowing Mycroft to use Sherlock as bait for capturing Moriarty. The "unusual" thing that Sherlock does, I believe, is allowing all the public acknowledgments of his success that we see in TRF, a tactic meant, of course, to lure Moriarty into action. That, with the added scene at the end of Hound with Moriarty, seems pretty suggestive. I'll be very surprised if you're not correct here.

Thanks Tantalus!

And I think you may be correct with the "out of character" clue. While calling Mycroft to ask for help is out of character, it is just one act. SH's constant willingness to be in the spotlight at the beginning of TRF Must be the greatest outlier of the episode (moreso than calling JW, expressing his feelings, etc).

Your thoughts on how involved Mycroft is behind the scenes? I would imagine that any deal they made came with a guarantee of Mycroft's (the British Government's) full protection of SH and all his dears.

besleybean · October 30, 2012 6:52 pm

But Sherlock hasn't asked Mycroft for help...well not shown in THE FALL, anyway...so that can't be the out of character thing.
But I think in reality he has asked Mycroft for help.
I also don't think Sherlock is willing to be in the spotlight, he's just thrown in to it.

Last edited by besleybean (October 30, 2012 7:24 pm)

kazza474 · October 30, 2012 7:22 pm

Yes it started way back. After the Scandal debacle, Mycroft & Sherlock started plotting to bring Moriarty down.
Whilst openly 'aggravated' with each other Sherlock & Mycroft actually do get along & collaborate their efforts in the fight against crime etc, So I would negate the 'out of character' thing being asking for Mycroft's help.

The whole thing from that point on was fully orchestrated by the Holmes Brothers.

Barrymore's use of 'negotiated' was simply to used instead of what actually happened; he was no doubt "ordered" to allow Sherlock access, but a man of his standing would not want to admit this to someone like Sherlock, so 'negotiated' sounds a little better, as if he had a say in things. But we know Mycroft would have made sure they were the "orders" given.

Oh, and yes, from very early on I have stated the out of character thing was allowing himself to become a hero. On my first viewing I sat there & wondered why he allowed himself to be at the 'thank you ' ceremonies. It soon became quite clear; because Sherlock never gets forced into things, he does them all for a reason. The reason being, to lift the crimes to a greater height in the public eye & hence lift the criminal when caught into the limelight. Just what an ego maniac like Moriarty would revel in & grow bolder in.
I think my whole theory was posted in the 'what's your theory' thread early on if you ever need some brain numbing reading before bed time.

besleybean · October 30, 2012 7:27 pm

But it isn't Barrymore who uses the term ' negotiated', it is from Sherlock's lips that we get this word.
I always thought it was Moriarty who conspired to get Sherlock in the public eye, to make his fall greater,

SusiGo · October 30, 2012 7:41 pm

Kazza, Tantalus, Philosopher, I agree with you. All this from a man who doesn't want to be knighted or made a hero and was more than reluctant to be blogged about.

kazza474 · October 31, 2012 12:21 am

besleybean wrote:
But it isn't Barrymore who uses the term ' negotiated', it is from Sherlock's lips that we get this word.
I always thought it was Moriarty who conspired to get Sherlock in the public eye, to make his fall greater,

Oh right, in which case he means 'what I demanded'. Sherlock enjoys to speak dramatically, I wouldn't read more into it. HOUND was a fairly straight forward episode.

Besley, Moriarty's ego would not allow him to 'get Sherlock in the public eye' no matter how great the plan. Moriarty's 'plan' at that stage was to win Sherlock over to the 'the dark side' as it were; such is the size of his ego that he thinks he can achieve that.
Sherlock & Moriarty's plan to PUT Sherlock into the limelight was meant to aggravate Moriarty to the extent that it would make him make a bold & erroneous move, which he did.

It would have been quite easy for Sherlock to shun the attention, in fact he spent years doing it thus far.

besleybean · October 31, 2012 7:00 am

Foe me, the only mistake Moriarty made, was losing his mind!
I also don't think Moriarty was trying to bring Sherlock to the dark side.

Tantalus · October 31, 2012 2:17 pm

kazza474 wrote:
Besley, Moriarty's ego would not allow him to 'get Sherlock in the public eye' no matter how great the plan. Moriarty's 'plan' at that stage was to win Sherlock over to the 'the dark side' as it were; such is the size of his ego that he thinks he can achieve that.
Sherlock & Moriarty's plan to PUT Sherlock into the limelight was meant to aggravate Moriarty to the extent that it would make him make a bold & erroneous move, which he did.

I completely agree that it was Sherlock and Mycroft who wished to put Sherlock in the limelight, not Moriarty. But where do you find justification for saying Moriarty wished to win over Sherlock to evil? Why would he wish to do so? Moriarty's ego is such that I would suspect he would neither welcome nor allow someone of equal mental prowess to continue to compete with him. I tend to think that Moriarty's sole intention is utterly to destroy Sherlock and take him out of the picture altogether. And he would not simply put a bullet in Sherlock's head. No, he needs for Sherlock to "fall" in the public's eye and not go down as a martyr, so to speak.

At least, that's what I've gathered from watching Sherlock and Moriarty interact.

veecee · October 31, 2012 6:14 pm

I'm jumping ahead a litte, but it's related. In TRF, John tells Sherlock to be careful about getting too famous, but isn't John's own blog largely responsible for Sherlock's celebrity. Sorry if I got oft-topic for the thread.

besleybean · October 31, 2012 6:19 pm

Veecee,I agree.
But possibly Sherlock's fame comes more form the presentation of rewards.
Does John's blog just bring them work?
But then apparently the ambassador to the U.S hired Sherlock because of the Reichenbach painting case...
Possibly John hadn't factored in the tabloid press!