BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Sherlock- Asperger's syndrome and sociopathy

ancientsgate · October 29, 2012 6:01 pm

besleybean wrote:
Oh sorry, I was only referring to a previous post!
No, I don't think they are really parasites...it wasn't my word, honest!

BB, you never include what post you're replying to in your own answers, so I often don't know what you're referring to. *hugs*

besleybean · October 29, 2012 6:05 pm

You shouted at me for using the word parasite, when I was only referring to somebody else using it!

Smoggy_London_Air · October 30, 2012 2:54 am

Okay, let's say we up parasitic lifestyle and take down impulsivity. He's still only a twelve, which admittedly is more than twice average but less than half of what would get you stuck in Broadmoor. Does anyone have the time to do Jim?

Smoggy_London_Air · October 30, 2012 3:28 am

besleybean wrote:
I don't think either the no pants or the riding crop are impulsive...they were both planned for specific purposes.
We don't know how he got involved with the police,. However it was, it seems to have set Sally permanently against him and Lestrade is obviously aware of drug issues.
Oh and he does escape custody in Reichenbach!

I think we could definitely put that down as an extenuating circumstance.

March 21, 2013 3:56 pm

I found an in-depth-analysis of Sherlock written by someone who is on the spectrum as well.

http://street-howitzer.tumblr.com/post/15587790724/the-slumber-of-feelings-a-study-of-autism-and-bbcs

The author obviously knows what he/she is talking about and he/she observes the emotional undertones very well.

Sparrow · March 22, 2013 1:05 pm

There is no such thing as a "high-functioning sociopath" and there is no difference between a sociopath as a psychopath. The only difference is that people seem to think a psychopath is worse than a sociopath. Wrong. It's the same personality disorder. People always associate "psychopath" with "crazy serial killer" or something along those lines. Which is wrong from the beginning. In fact, fewer serial murderers are psychopaths than you'd expect. Just wanted to clarify this before going further into the Sherlock thing.

Now Sherlock, personally I think he's niether a sociopath nor autistic. While he does show many characteristics of Asperger's, I don't think he qualifies for a medical diagnosis. He lacks many of the classic simptoms. I don't know how many of you watch the Big Bang Theory, but Sheldon Cooper is a brilliant example of someone with Asperger's. For example, people with Asperger's have difficulty in reading and interpreting nonverbal language. Facial expressions and body language are difficult to read for them whereas Sherlock certainly has no problem with that. In fact, reading body language is what he does best, isn't it?
Same goes for sociopathy/psychopathy. He'd probably score higher than your average person on the PCL-R, but he would probably not reach the required minimum for being diagnosed with sociopathy/psychopathy. He certainly does not lack empathy neither cognitive nor emotional, although both may be slighly different and seldomly expressed. Psychopaths generally lack emotional empathy while having good cognitive empathy. We see Sherlock is able to understand how people think and can manipulate them. People with autism have little cognitive empathy and relatively normal emotional empathy. Again, we see Sherlock having difficulty understanding certain emotions felt by others. So he has simptoms of both Asperger's and psychopathy but again, I doubt he qualifies for a diagnosis of either.

Sorry about my little essay. I tend to geek over stuff like this. O_O

Last edited by Sparrow (March 22, 2013 1:07 pm)

Davina · March 22, 2013 9:40 pm

I agree whole heartedly with ths. Sherlock does show certain traits of a personality disorder it s unclear which this is. Anyway, I think it is generally accepted that labels do not fit the range of personalities that exist. Labels tend to be used by professionals but putting individuals into labelled boxes is an artificial constraint.

Davina · May 20, 2013 6:24 am

Go away!

kittykat · June 20, 2013 6:26 pm

With regards to emotions...when he called John from the roof in TRF, I believe those tears were genuine

reality check · June 22, 2013 6:39 pm

Be wrote:
I found an in-depth-analysis of Sherlock written by someone who is on the spectrum as well.

http://street-howitzer.tumblr.com/post/15587790724/the-slumber-of-feelings-a-study-of-autism-and-bbcs

The author obviously knows what he/she is talking about and he/she observes the emotional undertones very well.

Very interesting read! Thank you for linking it. :o)

For example: the writer deduced the drug's bust scene in SIP exactly as I have seen it myself. Sherlock's behavior is caused by an emotional and sensory overload. Lestrade knows him well enough to curb down the others and give him space and quiet to recompose.
Other things like meltdowns, denying needs (like eating, sleeping), shutting down (muteness, stillness), shoving off emotions, etc. are well described and put in correlation.

Sorry, Sparrow, but I tend to believe very strongly, that Sherlock is autistic/has Asperger's.

Of course it's difficult to read facial expressions, interpret body language, registrate subtext, for someone with this condition. But it's not impossible to learn. In fact, most Asperger's have high levels of intelligence, which allows them to recognise, read and interpret these things, sometimes to a very skilled level (like Sherlock).

Naturally this learned abilitiy can be affected by stress (overloads, etc.), but can be pieced together in the right places in retrospect, caused by the detailed, saved memory of a certain event.
Of course, much too late often, which leads to confusion, misinterpretion by the 'Neurotypicals'. This is a vital argument and it's most terrific done by the writer in the link from 'Be'.

Asperger's even can learn to interpret and understand irony/sarcasm/metaphors and use them skilled as well.

What has not been pointed out at this time is the different process in the autistic brain. Aside from the hyper-/hyposensitivity, the incoming informations from the outside world are often perceived and processed in pictures* and patterns**. The brain is almost steadily busy (sometimes at multiple levels) with correlating and arranging. It can't be helped, this is the way it works (and sometimes overwhelming).

*Someone says: 'Oh, you pulled my leg' because the person has been teased, an autistic person might well know the metaphor, but 'sees' it first in mind at someone actually pulling a leg, which can be quite funny.
This split second between the 'seen' picture and the understanding of the meaning makes sometimes the difference for the 'right or wrong in time' social interaction.

** Someone says: Oh, on wednesday I have an appointment with A. at ten o'clock and on friday with B. at eleven o'clock. An autistic person might 'sees' in mind these two days in a threedimensional calendar made of blocks/columns and the appointment time blocks shining/blinking bright or 'sees' in mind the calendar like a folded paper or an accordion/fan.
** Processed informations and insights might be stored in neatly arranged drawers, sorted by themes and multiple other characteristics. New informations and insights are compared and correlated to the already stored infomations, pieced together or dismissed.

Hopefully this was a helpful description, although it has barely scratched the surface of the autistic/Asperger's perception.
Of course there are different levels and mixed types of these perceptions. (Between picture and pattern thinkers there are word thinkers as well.)

Sherlock might be a pattern dominated thinker.

Last edited by reality check (June 22, 2013 6:40 pm)

Manticone · October 3, 2013 9:07 am

Sparrow wrote:
There is no such thing as a "high-functioning sociopath" and there is no difference between a sociopath as a psychopath. The only difference is that people seem to think a psychopath is worse than a sociopath. Wrong. It's the same personality disorder. People always associate "psychopath" with "crazy serial killer" or something along those lines. Which is wrong from the beginning. In fact, fewer serial murderers are psychopaths than you'd expect. Just wanted to clarify this before going further into the Sherlock thing.

Now Sherlock, personally I think he's niether a sociopath nor autistic. While he does show many characteristics of Asperger's, I don't think he qualifies for a medical diagnosis. He lacks many of the classic simptoms. I don't know how many of you watch the Big Bang Theory, but Sheldon Cooper is a brilliant example of someone with Asperger's. For example, people with Asperger's have difficulty in reading and interpreting nonverbal language. Facial expressions and body language are difficult to read for them whereas Sherlock certainly has no problem with that. In fact, reading body language is what he does best, isn't it?
Same goes for sociopathy/psychopathy. He'd probably score higher than your average person on the PCL-R, but he would probably not reach the required minimum for being diagnosed with sociopathy/psychopathy. He certainly does not lack empathy neither cognitive nor emotional, although both may be slighly different and seldomly expressed. Psychopaths generally lack emotional empathy while having good cognitive empathy. We see Sherlock is able to understand how people think and can manipulate them. People with autism have little cognitive empathy and relatively normal emotional empathy. Again, we see Sherlock having difficulty understanding certain emotions felt by others. So he has simptoms of both Asperger's and psychopathy but again, I doubt he qualifies for a diagnosis of either.

Sorry about my little essay. I tend to geek over stuff like this. O_O

I agree. I never thought that Sherlock had any personality disorder (if I was forced to tag him with one...I'd say he was more narcissistic - but I really don't think he has a personality disorder). I think he's utterly brilliant, has probably been rejected growing up (Mycroft makes mention of Sherlock never having had friends), and has isolated himself away from others. Only ''the work'' matters to him, so he has less qualms about disrupting the status quo. I think he may have traits of aspergers - but some things also don't fit him at all (he makes good and powerful eye contact, is relatively graceful in his coordination, doesn't appear hyperlexic in the classic sense of memorizing terms but not getting the deeper meanings. etc.)

I agree: I don't think he'd actually be diagnosed as having asperger's or ASPD. I do wonder sometimes about a mood disorder though. Something like cyclothymia - he's rather impulsive at times, and mercurial at best, mood-wise (and the books definitely hint at that more).

I think people can develop many odd quirks and behavioural patterns when they are isolated, brilliant and friendless for an extended period of time. Sure, Sherlock seems eccentric in some ways - but I totally agree with what you've written. He uses the ''high functioning sociopath'' label to keep people away. Part of me wonders why he'd want to keep people away that much, unless he's been emotionally hurt time and time again for thinking so differently. John gives him compliments, yes, and Sherlock doesn't keep John away - but Sally calls him 'freak.' I think Sherlock has his own insecurities that are never really fleshed out on the show, but probably would exist given what we've seen as to how other people treat him (and again with Sebastian in the second episode - stating that everyone at Uni hated Sherlock etc.) Sherlock also tried to introduce John as his friend right before that character made him sound like a social outcast, and John sadly rebuffed the friend label for ''colleague.'' I think Sherlock was trying to show Sebastian that - 'hey, I'm not so weird. I brought a friend!' because the last time Sebastian knew Sherlock...Sherlock didn't have any true friends. And he wanted to change that perception.

(If that's true - then so much for Sherlock not caring what other people think). I do think that at one point Sherlock cared much more about what people thought of him, but he's quirky enough, and brilliant enough - that he's never easily fit in. Rather than get nervous and stutter, like Molly, he pushes people away and at times acts obnoxiously. But I think it's an act.

Manticone · October 3, 2013 9:17 am

reality check wrote:
Be wrote:
I found an in-depth-analysis of Sherlock written by someone who is on the spectrum as well.

http://street-howitzer.tumblr.com/post/15587790724/the-slumber-of-feelings-a-study-of-autism-and-bbcs

The author obviously knows what he/she is talking about and he/she observes the emotional undertones very well.
Very interesting read! Thank you for linking it. :o)

For example: the writer deduced the drug's bust scene in SIP exactly as I have seen it myself. Sherlock's behavior is caused by an emotional and sensory overload. Lestrade knows him well enough to curb down the others and give him space and quiet to recompose.
Other things like meltdowns, denying needs (like eating, sleeping), shutting down (muteness, stillness), shoving off emotions, etc. are well described and put in correlation.

Sorry, Sparrow, but I tend to believe very strongly, that Sherlock is autistic/has Asperger's.

Of course it's difficult to read facial expressions, interpret body language, registrate subtext, for someone with this condition. But it's not impossible to learn. In fact, most Asperger's have high levels of intelligence, which allows them to recognise, read and interpret these things, sometimes to a very skilled level (like Sherlock).

Naturally this learned abilitiy can be affected by stress (overloads, etc.), but can be pieced together in the right places in retrospect, caused by the detailed, saved memory of a certain event.
Of course, much too late often, which leads to confusion, misinterpretion by the 'Neurotypicals'. This is a vital argument and it's most terrific done by the writer in the link from 'Be'.

Asperger's even can learn to interpret and understand irony/sarcasm/metaphors and use them skilled as well.

What has not been pointed out at this time is the different process in the autistic brain. Aside from the hyper-/hyposensitivity, the incoming informations from the outside world are often perceived and processed in pictures* and patterns**. The brain is almost steadily busy (sometimes at multiple levels) with correlating and arranging. It can't be helped, this is the way it works (and sometimes overwhelming).

*Someone says: 'Oh, you pulled my leg' because the person has been teased, an autistic person might well know the metaphor, but 'sees' it first in mind at someone actually pulling a leg, which can be quite funny.
This split second between the 'seen' picture and the understanding of the meaning makes sometimes the difference for the 'right or wrong in time' social interaction.

** Someone says: Oh, on wednesday I have an appointment with A. at ten o'clock and on friday with B. at eleven o'clock. An autistic person might 'sees' in mind these two days in a threedimensional calendar made of blocks/columns and the appointment time blocks shining/blinking bright or 'sees' in mind the calendar like a folded paper or an accordion/fan.
** Processed informations and insights might be stored in neatly arranged drawers, sorted by themes and multiple other characteristics. New informations and insights are compared and correlated to the already stored infomations, pieced together or dismissed.

Hopefully this was a helpful description, although it has barely scratched the surface of the autistic/Asperger's perception.
Of course there are different levels and mixed types of these perceptions. (Between picture and pattern thinkers there are word thinkers as well.)

Sherlock might be a pattern dominated thinker.

Excellent points, too! It could be played either way. He seems to be on the cusp of a diagnosis. I actually scored borderline for asperger's myself, but don't have the empathic/ social relation difficulties. All of my difficulties were in the area of sensory overwhelm/ processing (which can make things like making eye contact difficult for me, and I cut out tags, hate walking on wet sand, and have a million little quirks that look like asperger's - but I don't have the social relations issues).

I do have vestibular and autonomic processing issues. When small, I was thought to be HFA for a time, so I can definitely see how Sherlock possesses some of the traits of someone with a PDD disorder. And you're right - sometimes he says things/ does things that scream Aspergers, too.

I also think that given his brilliance and imposed social isolation/ lack of friends - a lot of the traits that look like aspergers' - would probably not have existed if he had had someone like John in his life sooner. Mycroft, who in some respects raised Sherlock, is definitely a proponent of the ''caring is not an advantage'' motto. And while Sherlock sometimes doesn't seem to realize how he's hurt someone until it's too late (such as with Molly), he also displays a certain level of impulsiveness. You have to wonder if he's ignoring the warning signs in effort to ''show off'' - and then once the reality of the situation catches up with him, he feels badly.

The not eating/sleeping regularly issue could also exist if he had a mood disorder, too, which (I've mentioned before) fits the original books and short stories quite well. The impulsivity, wildly vacillating emotions, and so on - would fit with not eating/ not sleeping whilst keyed up.

Ahhhh. So tricky. I honestly don't know at this point! I'm hearing excellent points from both sides...

Manticone · October 3, 2013 9:58 am

Swanpride wrote:
To me the point of all those "diagnoses" thrown in is to say that none of them is correct and that we perhaps should stop trying to slap some label on a person just because he doesn't work the way we consider "normal". Sherlock doesn't have an disorder, he is just Sherlock. The same way John might have a psychosomatic limp, but certainly not PTSD.

I think the fans like to see what pieces and clues exist so if anything is ever revealed, they can feel like they've done a little detective work, too. When it comes to Sherlock, very little is finalized in my mind. It's fun to flesh out theories though (or at least it is for me).

NotYourHousekeeperDear · October 3, 2013 10:44 am

Just to throw another label in the mix, I definitely think Sherlock has ADHD
It's very typically comorbid with ASD and I think BBC Sherlock has both. Like everyone
He is not defined by these diagnoses but it does help us understand his thinking and behaviour

Manticone · October 3, 2013 10:56 am

NotYourHousekeeperDear wrote:
Just to throw another label in the mix, I definitely think Sherlock has ADHD
It's very typically comorbid with ASD and I think BBC Sherlock has both. Like everyone
He is not defined by these diagnoses but it does help us understand his thinking and behaviour

''Bored!'' (shoots the wall and sprays a smiley over everything to complete the look) ''Bored!''

I heard a friend mutter something about him being a petulant little brat, once. Done affectionately. Still, ADHD (or is it ADD-H these days? Or was it ADD-H before and now ADHD now? And why do they have to keep changing it?) - anyway, ADD-H/ADHD or not - if I did what he did, regardless of a diagnosis, I would have been given away to the goblin king...and that's as a child. ;)

Manticone · October 3, 2013 10:59 am

Okay, I looked it up...and ADD and ADHD are considered quite different, but I live in Canada - and I swear I've heard ADHD be called ADD-H, so now I am confused. Any psychologists in the house to clarify?

NotYourHousekeeperDear · October 3, 2013 11:24 am

I'm an Australian child psych and we call it ADHD over here- Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. It is generally accepted there are two types of Attention Deficit Disorder: The hyperactive/impulsive type (ADHD) aka Sherlock ! There is also the inattentive type
Where the difficulty is more maintaining attention and focus

Manticone · October 3, 2013 8:25 pm

NotYourHousekeeperDear wrote:
I'm an Australian child psych and we call it ADHD over here- Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. It is generally accepted there are two types of Attention Deficit Disorder: The hyperactive/impulsive type (ADHD) aka Sherlock ! There is also the inattentive type
Where the difficulty is more maintaining attention and focus

In Canada they call it ADD-H now. I remember a couple years (many, actually) they changed it from ADHD to ADD-H. I'm pretty sure they are the same thing Just like I think in England (not positive, need to double check) they don't refer to ASPD as ASPD - but something slightly different.

Okay. Good to double check.

Last edited by Manticone (October 3, 2013 8:25 pm)

NotYourHousekeeperDear · October 3, 2013 9:08 pm

Taking it a step further, if Sherlock has ADHD perhaps his cocaine addiction was a form of self-medication pre-Ritalin days...

Ormond Sacker · October 6, 2013 4:34 pm

Manticone wrote:
Just like I think in England (not positive, need to double check) they don't refer to ASPD as ASPD - but something slightly different.

If you are thinking of the similar but not quite the same diagnosis in the ICD-10 you are probably thinking of Dissocial Personality Disorder. It has many similarities to ASPD and is in many textbook that uses both DSM-IV and ICD-10 lumbered together with ASPD, but some of the criteria differ from that diagnosis. (Yes I know that we are up to DSM-V now, but it's been a while since I've read psychology textbooks ) For more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissocial#Dissocial_personality_disorder
Wikiepedia isn't my favoutire source but it'll have to do in this case.