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October 7, 2012 8:15 am  #41


Re: At the cemetery, do you think Sherlock was close enough to hear John?

Oh I think he knows exactly what John says.


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October 7, 2012 11:40 am  #42


Re: At the cemetery, do you think Sherlock was close enough to hear John?

Sherli Bakerst wrote:

On another note: Re Sherlock's look in the cemetery--I think he is just coolly assessing the situation, observing what is happening.

Perhaps just observing John and Mrs Hudson to make sure that they truely believe he is dead, since Moran (or whoever it turns out to be) would certainly be watching them for any sign that his death was a deception. 'Oh good, he's weeping, he really believes it,' is what I imagine going through his unsentimental head, keeping in mind he is doing this to keep them alive as well. It is callous by most people's standard, but in character I think.


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What do 'real' people have, then, in their 'real' lives?

So we go round the sun; if we went round the moon, or round and round the garden like a teddy bear, it wouldn't make any difference.

The consolation of imaginary things is not imaginary consolation. -- Roger Scruton
 

October 7, 2012 11:44 am  #43


Re: At the cemetery, do you think Sherlock was close enough to hear John?

Again, wow.
I just think after the final scene with Molly, we have really seen that Sherlock does have an emotional side...he just knows when to keep it in proportion.
I have no doubt that he loves John and is mortified at what he has to put him through.
But he also knows it is essential, for John's protection and to allow himself the time and space to do what he must.


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October 7, 2012 11:52 am  #44


Re: At the cemetery, do you think Sherlock was close enough to hear John?

The bit that doesn't sense to me is that Sherlock sports his trademark hairstyle and coat - but isn't the scene about 3 months after the fall?

It would make more sense to me to see him in disguise..

 

October 7, 2012 11:58 am  #45


Re: At the cemetery, do you think Sherlock was close enough to hear John?

And I made that very same point at the time.
Cos I wondered if he was hanging out with the homeless dudes, but apparently not.
It also means he hasn't yet left for the Continent.


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October 7, 2012 12:31 pm  #46


Re: At the cemetery, do you think Sherlock was close enough to hear John?

besleybean wrote:

Again, wow.
I just think after the final scene with Molly, we have really seen that Sherlock does have an emotional side...he just knows when to keep it in proportion.
I have no doubt that he loves John and is mortified at what he has to put him through.
But he also knows it is essential, for John's protection and to allow himself the time and space to do what he must.

Every time I see TRF, when it comes to the scene with Molly or his tears on the rooftop, I hear Moffat in my head saying, 'Sentimentalise him at your own peril!'  I'm not saying I shouldn't like to see him more human, but I'm not ready to believe it.


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What do 'real' people have, then, in their 'real' lives?

So we go round the sun; if we went round the moon, or round and round the garden like a teddy bear, it wouldn't make any difference.

The consolation of imaginary things is not imaginary consolation. -- Roger Scruton
 

October 7, 2012 12:33 pm  #47


Re: At the cemetery, do you think Sherlock was close enough to hear John?

I know, I have Steven ringing in my eras, too!
But don't misunderstand me.  I think everything Sherlock does is for a reason, but doesn't mean he isn't sometimes sad about the choices he has to make.


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October 7, 2012 12:38 pm  #48


Re: At the cemetery, do you think Sherlock was close enough to hear John?

besleybean wrote:

I know, I have Steven ringing in my eras, too!
But don't misunderstand me.  I think everything Sherlock does is for a reason, but doesn't mean he isn't sometimes sad about the choices he has to make.

Molly. 


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What do 'real' people have, then, in their 'real' lives?

So we go round the sun; if we went round the moon, or round and round the garden like a teddy bear, it wouldn't make any difference.

The consolation of imaginary things is not imaginary consolation. -- Roger Scruton
 

October 7, 2012 12:46 pm  #49


Re: At the cemetery, do you think Sherlock was close enough to hear John?

I think he found it difficult to approach Molly.
But I do think it also shows he had always considered her a valuable colleague and possibly now a friend.
Wonder why Mycroft didn't approach Molly? Leg work?!


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October 7, 2012 6:42 pm  #50


Re: At the cemetery, do you think Sherlock was close enough to hear John?

The Doctor wrote:

The bit that doesn't sense to me is that Sherlock sports his trademark hairstyle and coat - but isn't the scene about 3 months after the fall?

It would make more sense to me to see him in disguise..

So many questions, so much time to think about the possible answers. You know, cliffhangers are one thing, but cliffhangers with 18 months to 2 years lead time are just plain torture. Sigh.

 

October 7, 2012 6:45 pm  #51


Re: At the cemetery, do you think Sherlock was close enough to hear John?

As I said, it's how they cover it all in 90 mins!
Incidentally, I gather Mark has written the episode.


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October 7, 2012 6:45 pm  #52


Re: At the cemetery, do you think Sherlock was close enough to hear John?

besleybean wrote:

And I made that very same point at the time.
Cos I wondered if he was hanging out with the homeless dudes, but apparently not.
It also means he hasn't yet left for the Continent.

Just because canon Sherlock went to the continent, doesn't mean ours will. Maybe ours is renting a house in the Bahamas....  heh.

 

October 7, 2012 6:48 pm  #53


Re: At the cemetery, do you think Sherlock was close enough to hear John?

I didn't think he would go to the Continent, but somebody bigger and better than me on here seems to think so!


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October 7, 2012 7:03 pm  #54


Re: At the cemetery, do you think Sherlock was close enough to hear John?

I guess that Mycroft could  just provide him with a false identity and the equivalent of a witness protection programme somewhere. That is certainly within his capabilities and his normal remit.


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October 10, 2012 2:11 am  #55


Re: At the cemetery, do you think Sherlock was close enough to hear John?

The Doctor wrote:

The bit that doesn't sense to me is that Sherlock sports his trademark hairstyle and coat - but isn't the scene about 3 months after the fall?

It would make more sense to me to see him in disguise..

Three months??? I always thought they were in the graveyard right after "Sherlock" was buried. Why do you say three months? I especially thought this because John says he can't go back to the flat, which I don't think he would decide three months after the fall.

Also, I think a lot of what Sherlock does makes him seem callous but I think he really does feel emotions. I think he just pushes them aside or buries them out of necessity. Like when they were looking at the stars and John assumes he couldn't care about the stars and Sherlock makes his point about the fact that he can appreciate those things.


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“The only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved,
desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn!" - Jack Kerouac
 

October 10, 2012 7:00 am  #56


Re: At the cemetery, do you think Sherlock was close enough to hear John?

' buries them'?!  You made a funny!


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October 10, 2012 9:54 am  #57


Re: At the cemetery, do you think Sherlock was close enough to hear John?

besleybean wrote:

' buries them'?!  You made a funny!

"buries" him yeah lol Because its not really his body but they put a gravestone up Then they visited it. I made a funny? lol

Last edited by VivaCohen (October 10, 2012 9:54 am)


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“The only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved,
desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn!" - Jack Kerouac
 

October 11, 2012 1:30 am  #58


Re: At the cemetery, do you think Sherlock was close enough to hear John?

VivaCohen wrote:

besleybean wrote:

' buries them'?!  You made a funny!

"buries" him yeah lol Because its not really his body but they put a gravestone up Then they visited it. I made a funny? lol

Even Cumberbatch and Gatiss are laughing.


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October 11, 2012 1:36 am  #59


Re: At the cemetery, do you think Sherlock was close enough to hear John?

Sherlock84 wrote:

VivaCohen wrote:

besleybean wrote:

' buries them'?!  You made a funny!

"buries" him yeah lol Because its not really his body but they put a gravestone up Then they visited it. I made a funny? lol

Even Cumberbatch and Gatiss are laughing.

Whaaaaat? Sheesh lol Yeah I assume there's some ashes on some mantle or some guy's body in the ground or an empty coffin or nothing at all but they stuck a gravestone up so I assumed the scene took place pretty soon after they put it up. Why is everyone laughing at me??? *cries* same ole, same ole


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“The only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved,
desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn!" - Jack Kerouac
 

October 11, 2012 1:52 am  #60


Re: At the cemetery, do you think Sherlock was close enough to hear John?

Hrm how did I miss this thread? Some questions that have been posed I'm going to give my thoughts on - take it or leave it

1) I also read that this was 3 months later. I think because there's something at the beginning that suggests the counsellor appointment was 3 months after his death? I'm not sure where I got 3 months from but it's from somewhere.
2) "Sentimentalise him at your peril" is a big one to keep in mind (as is Moffat's lovely joy in telling us things to send us totally off track)
3) You can tell by the position of Sherlock vs John that when John was facing the grave his back was to Sherlock
4) There is no way Sherlock would have been able to hear what John had said, unless he'd planted a bug (unlikely, as has been mentioned)
5) Given Sherlock has just gone to a helluva lot of trouble to fake his own death and is an extremely practical and pragmatic person; I cannot believe he would jeopardise that by attending the grave for sentimental reasons or to 'check up on' Mrs Hudson and John. There are people who know he's alive so he has other ways and means for checking up on them if that's what he wants to do (we're not 100% sure who but we suspect both Molly and Mycroft - although I personally think Molly was asked to do something unrelated because she doesn't seem the kind of personality who could keep that big a secret)

So, given all the above I think Sherlock was at the graveyard either A) as a dramatic reveal to the audience that he's still alive or B) for some other pragmatic reason. I suspect the former. We really do need to remember that some choices are made for the Real Life impact on us (the audience) rather than In Universe / In Character reasons.

Sorry, I think that became a bit of an essay


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