BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Pet Peeves

ancientsgate · September 20, 2012 1:13 pm

Davina wrote:
Beware also the dreaded autocorrect. When I want to write its it always, always tries to change it to it's, even when it makes no sense whatsoever.

Also beware of spellchecker. It's an invaluable tool, but it will miss anything that's an actual word, even if it's the wrong spelling for the word that's intended. It won't differentiate between alter and altar, for instance. Both are correct spellings, and even if you mix them up and misuse them, you won't see the wavy red line under them, unless you actually misspell the word, of course.

ancientsgate · September 20, 2012 1:15 pm

Carol the Dabbler wrote:
Even though I can understand the mechanism for this misunderstanding -- why can't people just think?

Yes, Sherlock. We hear you. *runs away cackling*

Banbha · September 20, 2012 1:33 pm

I mix British and American spelling. I didn't notice I was doing it until a few years ago, when someone called me out on how I spell theatre and words such as travelled, cancelled, signalled, and etc. (They only have one "L" here in the States.) I don't really have an explanation. It could be that, during my formative years, I read a good deal of Brit Lit and the spellings stuck in my brain. I don't know.

I used to be a real stickler when it came to grammar, but the longer I've been out of English classes at school, the worse I feel my grammar is getting. I blame society; some people are so completely ignorant of the ins and outs of their own language that they drag everyone else down with them. Trying to read posts on Facebook used to be enough to make my skin crawl. I mean, I understand typos happen once in a while, but is it so difficult to remember which their/they're/there (and etc) you are to use?

ancientsgate · September 20, 2012 1:40 pm

Banbha wrote:
Trying to read posts on Facebook used to be enough to make my skin crawl. I mean, I understand typos happen once in a while, but is it so difficult to remember which their/they're/there (and etc) you are to use?

Apparently.

In their defense, American school kids have been actively taught that "spelling doesn't matter" for over 30 years now. School kids are asked to write compositions of various kinds, supposedly to teach them how to tell a story, how to get their thoughts down in a coherent way, or just for fun, I suppose, but "spelling doesn't matter... you won't be marked down for misspelled words." Is it any wonder then that people who are about 40 and under can't spell, don't think it matters a hoot anyway, and go so far as to deliberately misspell words because they think it's faster, more clever, etc.?

Davina · September 20, 2012 2:11 pm

We had exactly the same thing here at school for years, where expressing oneself was regarded as more important than either spelling or grammar. There has been a move back towards the teaching of correct spelling and grammar but the legacy of the previous 30-odd years is here for all to see. What makes it difficult is that many teachers do not have the necessary grounding in their own language.

I remember, when I was at secondary school, that I only found out what verbs, nouns and tenses were when I started to learn French.

Banbha · September 20, 2012 2:27 pm

ancientsgate wrote:
Banbha wrote:
Trying to read posts on Facebook used to be enough to make my skin crawl. I mean, I understand typos happen once in a while, but is it so difficult to remember which their/they're/there (and etc) you are to use?
Apparently.

In their defense, American school kids have been actively taught that "spelling doesn't matter" for over 30 years now. School kids are asked to write compositions of various kinds, supposedly to teach them how to tell a story, how to get their thoughts down in a coherent way, or just for fun, I suppose, but "spelling doesn't matter... you won't be marked down for misspelled words." Is it any wonder then that people who are about 40 and under can't spell, don't think it matters a hoot anyway, and go so far as to deliberately misspell words because they think it's faster, more clever, etc.?

I grew up going to parochial school where spelling (and everything else) most certainly did matter. When I started public school in junior high, I felt as though I'd taken steps backward. I remember thinking, in some of my 7th grade classes, that the material being taught I'd already learned in grades previous.

Math is the exception. I've never been good at it. I remember being chapters behind everyone else as early as 3rd grade. But I majored in science at school so I guess I made it work somehow.

Banbha · September 20, 2012 2:32 pm

Davina wrote:
We had exactly the same thing here at school for years, where expressing oneself was regarded as more important than either spelling or grammar. There has been a move back towards the teaching of correct spelling and grammar but the legacy of the previous 30-odd years is here for all to see. What makes it difficult is that many teachers do not have the necessary grounding in their own language.

I remember, when I was at secondary school, that I only found out what verbs, nouns and tenses were when I started to learn French.

What's getting really bad here is the idea that there are no losers, that everyone gets credit for trying, etc. It's the spirit of inclusion taken to the nth degree. When I was growing up, if you participated in a contest--a spelling bee, a sports event, music competitions, Science Olympiad, anything--there were clear winners and losers. Now, everyone gets a prize. There are children's sports that do not compete for winners and losers, they just play without keeping score. To me, this is just silly. I'm competitive, and losing a contest as a child only made me work harder so that I could put forth a better effort. I feel like we're now teaching kids that effort doesn't matter, because you'll get credit no matter what, so why work hard at something?

Doesn't bode well for the future. In my opinion.

Davina · September 20, 2012 5:18 pm

I agree and of course the children STILL know who is really good at something e.g. Sports. Just giving everyone a prize fools nobody. When they go into the playground they get really competitive. We have the same sort of non-competitive pressures here but they are becoming less powerful. Certainly here sports, especially at what you would call High School, are very competitive.

We have an annual music, speech and drama festival locally with prizes given. An overwhelming majority of the schools that take part are private, fee-paying schools.

Of course teachers do not want to make their pupils feel like they are stupid but not telling them the correct way to spell a word, as one example, is not helping them in the long run. If everything that is written is perfectly valid as it is, then we are in danger of losing the common language that allows us to communicate clearly between ourselves. This is not what happens though. What happens is that those children grow into adults who are hindered socially, academically and in employment because they are unable to use different registers of speaking, depending upon the social situation, and are also unable to express themselves clearly in the written word.

Oh dear! This has turned into a bit of a rant. Sorry!

I was also not very good at Maths. Funnily enough people are always far more ready to admit that they they are to admit that they were no good at reading or writing. Funny that eh?

Last edited by Davina (September 20, 2012 5:20 pm)

Wholocked · September 21, 2012 1:52 am

ancientsgate wrote:
And to add to this list, accept, except. I see those mixed up all the time.

THANK YOU!!! That's the one I was trying to think of all day yesterday.

ancientsgate · September 21, 2012 3:50 am

Wholocked wrote:
ancientsgate wrote:
And to add to this list, accept, except. I see those mixed up all the time.
THANK YOU!!! That's the one I was trying to think of all day yesterday.

Advice, advise. Almost always spelled wrong for the meaning the person is going through. I have to admit, I often have to pause and think it out before I know which one to use.

The lay and lie thing is a tough one to use right, too. I try to remember the old rule, "A person can never be laid." lololol Lay and lie are among the toughest irregular verbs in English, IMO.

Same goes for hung and hanged. The rule is, "A person is always hanged." We remember that from Sherlock, of course....

sherlockedkt · September 21, 2012 4:01 am

kazza474 wrote:
I would like to point out one that annoys me, I've read it twice in one thread today........

"You're English is perfect" ......... arrrgghh!!!!!!!! (Note : exclamation marks are fully warranted in this instance.)
*deep breath*

This translates to "You are English is perfect", I think NOT!
Your English needs a brush up!

*All said in good humour*

Spotted that one, thanks for the gold star!

sherlockedkt · September 21, 2012 4:04 am

Davina wrote:
We had exactly the same thing here at school for years, where expressing oneself was regarded as more important than either spelling or grammar. There has been a move back towards the teaching of correct spelling and grammar but the legacy of the previous 30-odd years is here for all to see. What makes it difficult is that many teachers do not have the necessary grounding in their own language.

I remember, when I was at secondary school, that I only found out what verbs, nouns and tenses were when I started to learn French.

I have always been quite a grammar nut (I distinctly remember being thrilled to diagram sentences in the sixth grade; I would even do it for fun). As a current high school French teacher, I am baffled at the percentage of students who come through my door with NO idea what the parts of speech are. Try to teach someone about past participle agreement with preceding direct objects when they are clueless about what any of those terms mean in the first place... it's a challenge, I don't mind saying!

ancientsgate · September 21, 2012 4:46 am

sherlockedkt wrote:
I have always been quite a grammar nut (I distinctly remember being thrilled to diagram sentences in the sixth grade; I would even do it for fun). As a current high school French teacher, I am baffled at the percentage of students who come through my door with NO idea what the parts of speech are. Try to teach someone about past participle agreement with preceding direct objects when they are clueless about what any of those terms mean in the first place... it's a challenge, I don't mind saying!

I never understood English sentence structure until I started studying French in 7th grade. Seriously. I had sat in school for 6 years, got English grammar stuffed into my ears all that time, but apparently nothing ever really got into my mind. Bad teaching? Making a big deal out of something that really isn't that hard? Being heavy-handed about grammar because maybe the teachers didn't enjoy it or really understand it themselves, and I got infected with their disinterest and confusion? I have no idea. All I know is, I was an excellent reader and speller, but had no idea about the difference between a noun and a verb, an adjective and an adverb, etc, until I met my 7th grade French teacher. Who was young and dreamy and male, by the way, lol..... maybe I finally listened to him? ha Monsieur Gravel. I'll never forget him.

Wholocked · September 21, 2012 9:10 am

I was taught grammar and spelling in school but even to this day I have no idea what the names for all the various parts of things mean. I know noun, proper noun, pronoun, possessive pronoun etc but I get confused about verbs, adverbs, adjectives and whatever the hell sherlockedkt was talking about up above. However, grammar (mostly) just makes logical sense to me. I can see/hear/feel when something isn't correct, I just don't know what the technical name for it is. I'm okay with that, though. At least I can construct proper sentences with correct spelling (most of the time).

ancientsgate · September 21, 2012 12:27 pm

Wholocked wrote:
I was taught grammar and spelling in school but even to this day I have no idea what the names for all the various parts of things mean. I know noun, proper noun, pronoun, possessive pronoun etc but I get confused about verbs, adverbs, adjectives and whatever the hell sherlockedkt was talking about up above. However, grammar (mostly) just makes logical sense to me. I can see/hear/feel when something isn't correct, I just don't know what the technical name for it is. I'm okay with that, though. At least I can construct proper sentences with correct spelling (most of the time).

The see/feel/hear thing is something that goes along with being a native speaker. Most of the time, we know what sounds right, an advantage someone learning English from outside will never have unless they spend oodles of time in an English-speaking environment and get the sound and feel of the language in their minds and mouths.

Actually, basic English grammar is not that hard. If you care, you can go on the internet and find all the simplified info you need for a basic understanding. It's not necessary for anyone to understand the difference in verb tenses, for instance (participles and perfects, etc), but a working knowledge of what an adverb or adjective are, or the difference between prepositions and conjunctions, would be a nice thing to know, just on general principles.

Hey, another frequently misspelled couple of words-- principal and principle. It just goes on and on, eh?

Banbha · September 21, 2012 12:52 pm

ancientsgate wrote:
Wholocked wrote:
ancientsgate wrote:
And to add to this list, accept, except. I see those mixed up all the time.
THANK YOU!!! That's the one I was trying to think of all day yesterday.
Advice, advise. Almost always spelled wrong for the meaning the person is going through. I have to admit, I often have to pause and think it out before I know which one to use.

The lay and lie thing is a tough one to use right, too. I try to remember the old rule, "A person can never be laid." lololol Lay and lie are among the toughest irregular verbs in English, IMO.

Same goes for hung and hanged. The rule is, "A person is always hanged." We remember that from Sherlock, of course....

Farther and further. That one I usually have to think about. Also, why to say I instead of me, i.e. "Sherlock and I..." or "Sherlock and me..." That's probably my worst one.

Banbha · September 21, 2012 12:59 pm

Davina wrote:
Of course teachers do not want to make their pupils feel like they are stupid but not telling them the correct way to spell a word, as one example, is not helping them in the long run. If everything that is written is perfectly valid as it is, then we are in danger of losing the common language that allows us to communicate clearly between ourselves. This is not what happens though. What happens is that those children grow into adults who are hindered socially, academically and in employment because they are unable to use different registers of speaking, depending upon the social situation, and are also unable to express themselves clearly in the written word.

Oh dear! This has turned into a bit of a rant. Sorry!

Well, it's frustrating. I don't want to grow old only to live in a country run by young people who couldn't pass 8th grade English. I worked very hard in school and, if I wasn't measuring up, I was called out on it. Or my mother was called. I hated Catholic school at the time, but I'm now pretty thankful for that education. That, and my mother did "refreshers" during the summer. She'd make little worksheets that I'd have to do before I could go play. I guess she was following the "If you don't use it, you lose it" mentality. Just another thing I hated that I'm now thankful for.

ancientsgate · September 21, 2012 1:09 pm

Banbha wrote:
Also, why to say I instead of me, i.e. "Sherlock and I..." or "Sherlock and me..." That's probably my worst one.

And very, very commonly misused, which is why in that case being a native speaker is almost a hindrance, rather than a help.

The confusion will go away if you can remember that I, we, you, they, he, she and it are subjective pronouns and therefore always used as the subjects in sentences-- I (you, they, he, she) went to the store, but that me, us, you, them, him, her and it are objective pronouns and therefore always the objects of the sentence's verb. I took him, not I took he. I looked at them, not I looked at they. The objective form of pronouns are also used as the objects of any preposition. He went with me, not he went with I. John took Mary and me to the movies, not John took Mary and I.

Put any sentence you can't figure out to the test by taking out one of the pronouns. In the sentence John took Mary and me to the movies, take Mary out of the equation and say the sentence again-- you would never say John took I to the movies, would you, so the correct pronoun is me, John took me to the movies. This test will always work.

Good basic primer for this here, if you care:
http://oxforddictionaries.com/words/i-or-me

Last edited by ancientsgate (September 21, 2012 1:10 pm)

tobeornot221b · September 21, 2012 1:18 pm

Thanks, ancientsgate, I understand. But what do you think about this one:

SHERLOCK: "Did you know there were other people after her too, Mycroft, before you sent John and I in there? CIA-trained killers, at an excellent guess."

John and I?? Sounds wrong to me...

ancientsgate · September 21, 2012 1:51 pm

tobeornot221b wrote:
Thanks, ancientsgate, I understand. But what do you think about this one:

SHERLOCK: "Did you know there were other people after her too, Mycroft, before you sent John and I in there? CIA-trained killers, at an excellent guess."

John and I?? Sounds wrong to me...

It is wrong. It should be me. But as I said earlier, this I/me thing is so frequently misused in spoken English, it almost sounds wrong when the right word is used! In common usage, it was perfectly acceptable for him to say I in that case, even though me was technically correct.