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June 6, 2018 7:16 am  #8141


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Here is another link. I have not managed to listen yet but it sounds interesting, an academic discussion on the subject of queerbaiting including BBC Sherlock as an example: 

http://henryjenkins.org/blog/2018/6/5/how-do-you-like-it-so-far-podcast-emily-andrea-maureen-ryan-and-louisa-stein-discuss-fans-producers-and-queer-baiting 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

June 6, 2018 9:44 am  #8142


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Thanks for that podcast, Suzi!  Really interesting discussion, but it did stray quite a way off Sherlock at times (unfortunately, I haven't watched the other shows it talked about). 

It does seem to be a shame that it was this show in particular that people latched on to.  The podcast kept mentioning that 14 year old LGBTQ people need to see themselves on screen, but Sherlock and John were never going to be that, were they?   Whereas in Doctor Who there was a much younger, openly lesbian main character, which was worlds better in terms of representation, but it didn't seem to attract the same following (or maybe I missed it).  

To be fair to Moftiss, and the rest of the team, I do think they were clear from the very beginning that it was a friendship. 

 

June 6, 2018 10:28 am  #8143


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think we have been over this very often in this thread. I know what Mofftiss have said again and again. The problem is that for many people what they did in the show was perceived as being in contrast to what they said. IMO this is at the core of the problem.  

I am a writer by profession. Let's assume I write a novel and a certain percentage of my readers perceive a character as, say, fascist. I can tell them as often as I like that I did not plan to write a fascist character but as long as people (and quite a lot of them) perceive the character this way, I must at least go and think about it long and hard. Which is what Mofftiss in my opinion have refused to do. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

June 6, 2018 11:49 am  #8144


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I see what you mean, Susi. But I think there are many factors at play here  (which in itself makes this very interesting, I think). How we interpret at text/show/anything depends on quite a lot - our cultural background, our personal background, our experiences, our preferences, our knowledge base... None of these variables are controllable by the author. 

For instance, there were quite a few back in the HP-days that were convinced Harry and Hermione would become a couple. For J.K.Rowling and for probably the majority of the fans (including me) it was obvious from very early on that Ron and Hermione would end up together. So even when Rowling put, what she described as "anvil-sized hints" into the books about R&H, quite a big portion of the fanbase were convinced about H&H. 

Because when you have a preference, you can so easily interpret what you find so that it correlates with your already existing world-view. This is the psychological basis for just about all belief in conspiracy theories, for instance. And if you think H&H match together better than R&H, you can easily interpret what is a close friendship into something more. Same as with Johnlock.

That doesn't mean that there weren't scenes that were open to interpretation. But "open to interpretation" means exactly that - that the scene could be interpreted both as Johnlock and as "just friends". And when the creators then repeatedly says "just friends" is the right interpretation (according to where they are going in the show itself), then I don't see the problem with it. 


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
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Team Hudders!
 
 

June 6, 2018 1:43 pm  #8145


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think some people saw it on screen, but my bet is that they were in a minority.  It was pretty much established in the first episode that John liked women and Sherlock was married to his work ... which is the way it went for the rest of the episodes.   I felt that we were quite clearly shown that they were not attracted to each other in that way.  And some of the things in the podcast, the toplock/bottomlock thing in particular, really did seem to be just fantasy. 

But I don't even think that these (almost!) middle-aged, middle class, straight or heavily closeted, white male characters would be good representation for teenage LGBT women (the podcasts mainly talked about women), even if the writers had decided to get them together. 

And I also think it's a shame if writers are expected to be uber-careful about any reference to same sex attraction for fear of being accused of queer-baiting.  For instance, one of the criticisms was that Sherlock came back to life to save John.  I think it would be very sad if this kind of love is not allowed to be shown, unless it's "romantic".   (And also, in terms of the writing, that really was the most pressing reason for Sherlock to come back - he thought John was in danger from Mary.  Should it really have been written as him coming back because he hasn't managed to take down Magnussen, for instance, just to avoid any possible hint of an attraction to John?). 
 

 

June 12, 2018 6:11 am  #8146


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Wow, people are outdoing themselves lately! http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png


https://78.media.tumblr.com/7086eca50affe335594355110310c9a2/tumblr_p9z8w9U0Os1th86yqo1_1280.jpg


Details about the book:

https://iamjohnlocked4life.tumblr.com/post/174676644200/iamjohnlocked4life-sherlock-holmes-collection
 


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

June 12, 2018 6:42 am  #8147


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Oh, it's John and Henry, not John and Sherlock.  Or does Sherlock get involved later on, in a love triangle? I wonder why it's an audiobook rather than print/ebook?  Maybe just because there is plenty of written erotica, but audio versions are lacking. 

 

June 12, 2018 7:03 am  #8148


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Oh, Germany is getting a queer Holmes audio book. Amazing times to live in. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png

 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

June 12, 2018 5:17 pm  #8149


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

It got me thinking, actually, about how much pornography/erotica is visual (film, video, text, photography, painting, etc.).  I'm sure audiobooks are great news for people who have visual difficulties or who prefer to listen rather than see/read.  Maybe they're also fun for brightening up the commute to work!   Or as a bedtime story. 

Probably quite a lot rests on whether the reader has an appealing voice! 
 

 

June 13, 2018 4:19 pm  #8150


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Liberty wrote:

It got me thinking, actually, about how much pornography/erotica is visual (film, video, text, photography, painting, etc.).  I'm sure audiobooks are great news for people who have visual difficulties or who prefer to listen rather than see/read.  Maybe they're also fun for brightening up the commute to work!   Or as a bedtime story. 

Probably quite a lot rests on whether the reader has an appealing voice! 
 

Now desperately fantasizing about Ben reading erotica aloud.


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Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German   http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.gif
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
http://media-cache-ec3.pinimg.com/736x/aa/2b/35/aa2b352725f4c944599a3ea17cbfe44e.jpg    https://31.media.tumblr.com/bb0f8896a79d19602eeaea0254ff5ccd/tumblr_n5ztxjGDB61stgn3no1_500.jpg
 
 

June 13, 2018 5:57 pm  #8151


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

That did occur to me!

 

June 13, 2018 6:15 pm  #8152


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Casanova?


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

June 13, 2018 6:17 pm  #8153


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I seem to remember him reading from a classic Chinese erotic novel ...


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

June 13, 2018 6:19 pm  #8154


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Not for me, I have to say...


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

June 14, 2018 7:17 am  #8155


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

This is not about Johnlock as such but I think there is a connection. And I am baffled at Mofftiss taking this up 25 years later - and at the Sun's homophobia but this should not come as a surprise:

http://devoursjohnlock.tumblr.com/post/167707451416/the-tabloid-infinity-mirror

 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

June 14, 2018 4:02 pm  #8156


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think Janine taking selling the story to the press worked particularly well in HLV, because of Magnussen being a media mogul.  Janine was able to have a sort of revenge on him by selling to a rival.  But also, I think, it added to the idea of Magnussen's power - we know that the story wasn't true, and that there was no evidence, but it didn't stop the papers publishing.   Maybe it shouldn't have been such a revelation when Sherlock found out that Magnussen didn't need a secret vault!   This was probably a major clue (although I didn't notice it until just now, when I read your post, Susi!).

Of course, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Moftiss had seen the Sun story (they would presumably have been watching the show), and remembered it, either consciously or unconsciously, when writing HLV. 

 

 

June 20, 2018 7:41 pm  #8157


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Here is a long, detailed, and polite answer to the Slate podcast discussed in here:

https://sherlock-overflow-error.tumblr.com/post/174902691918/in-defense-of-tjlc


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

June 20, 2018 9:32 pm  #8158


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Slightly OT, but there's one area where I agree so much with the writer - there does seem to be a prejudice against teenage/young women and the things they like (I've noticed particularly with Twilight and Justin Bieber in the past).  It's fashionable to hate what teenage women love, which I feel is critical of young women. 

I have to admit that I've been (and probably still am!) a bit confused by the difference between Johnlock and TJLC.  The writer puts it very clearly that Johnlock is purely about shipping the characters rather than believing it would happen in the show, but I've felt there is a kind of half way house where people believe it's the intention of the show, but don't believe all the "conspiracy" type clues.   I do find it difficult to understand how people could believe in the drink code thing!  But I think the Slate podcast did try to understand at the end. 

I liked the points in the article about the positive aspects of the TJLC community.  It's funny - I'd posted just a while back that I feel it's a shame people latched on to John and Sherlock's relationship (a couple basically shown as straight or heavily closeted, white, middleaged, middle class, etc., men) for representation for LGBT youth, rather than characters closer to their demographic and openly gay.   But I wonder if the community maybe needed something like the "conspiracy" aspect to have those positive benefits?  If the programme had actually shown a romantic relationship, then there would have been no need for the community?

 

June 21, 2018 5:59 am  #8159


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

An interesting one, Liberty.
Possibly I deal with TJLC the same as I do all faiths and that isn't bad: I simply assume that different people believe for a variety of reasons...and I'll stop that particular line, before it turns offensive.
But anyway, I don't know whether it's actually a need or a want to believe, again, maybe it's eiher one of the other for individuals...
I can only repeat what I have already said: if the BBC Sherlock team had decided to go down the gay route, nobody would have been happier than me.
But they didn't and I really think we ought to respect their choices on that one...again I don't know how many times I have to say this: but we have fan art/fic/ vids and even our own fantasies for personal visions- we do not have any right to impose our head canon on anyone else.
The BBC team are under no obligation to meet anybody's character development/storylines expectations....
I will continue to believe in complete artistic freedom and therefore the  team have to be allowed to make the show they want to.
Whether we want to watch it or not, is our decision.The show still has my full support, whether it continues or not.
I watch other shows to see the gay storylines I enjoy.

Last edited by besleybean (June 21, 2018 6:00 am)


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

June 21, 2018 8:52 pm  #8160


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Thanks for the link, Susi. It's always good to get nuanced opinions. TJLC is, as most things, not only good or only bad. It is what it is, to quote John.

My biggest problem with TJLC is that quite a few seem to think (or seemed to think) that their interpretation was the only right one, and if the writers didn't see that and didn't have Johnlock as end game, then they were wrong, misleading, queerbaiting, cowards etc etc. 

She writes in this reply that they do it mostly for fun. But the ones who held the belief I wrote about above are the ones that I think of as "stalinists", to quote Martin. 

I think most tings are fine as long as they are done for fun, with a bit of perspective and a with a bit of a tongue-in-cheek attitude. If people starts to take things like this too seriously, that's when things starts to go badly.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

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