It is incredibly outdated!  But it is still used a lot today (in fact, I think it's probably rare that it's not used).   And they are all doctors, of course.  It's the same basic training.  It's just the titles that are different.  Surgeons are usually Mr/Miss/Mrs (although they were previously Dr).  It's a mark or respect or status.  So I think that's where the reasoning comes from with Molly.  If she's doing post mortems she's likely a pathologist, if she's a pathologist, then she's a doctor, and if she's a doctor titled "Miss", she's a surgeon. 

Incidentally, in the UK, I don't think coroners are generally doctors at all - it's more of a legal position than a medical one.  As for psychiatrists and other non-surgeons, their title would be "Dr".  They wouldn't need a doctorate for that title!

My personal feeling is that they the character just developed that way - she started off being somebody who worked in the lab/mortuary, they decided to keep the character and gave her a bigger role in her field.  I don't honestly think there was supposed to be any backstory about her being dual trained as a surgeon and pathologist - that's just us trying to make things fit! 

Yes, (medical) doctors have the title "Dr", regardless of whether they have a doctoral degree (I imagine the majority won't when they first qualify).  They are two very separate things, with a title in common, I suppose . 

Liberty wrote:

It is incredibly outdated!  But it is still used a lot today (in fact, I think it's probably rare that it's not used).   And they are all doctors, of course.  It's the same basic training.  It's just the titles that are different.  Surgeons are usually Mr/Miss/Mrs (although they were previously Dr).  It's a mark or respect or status.  So I think that's where the reasoning comes from with Molly.

Oh, intersting. I got it now, where my confusion comes from. And it seems that the system in the UK IS quite different from that in Germany and probably the rest of central Europe? At least in Austria and Switzerland it is the same as in Germany with the doctoral degree.

We are getting off topic, but I find it very interesting so I hope it is ok and we can discuss further.

So for a physician in the UK it would be something like an honor to lose his doctoral title if he aspires to become a surgeon? Because it would mean that, when he is now called Mr again, he now has the training and expertise to do surgeries on his own? And could you say that for physicians it is easier to get the title "Doctor" than to get rid of it again?  This is weird, you have to admit.^^

What also is very different: In Germany, if you earn the title "Doctor" (you have to write a doctoral thesis for that like SusiGo explained), you will keep it for a lifetime, even if you don't work anymore. You can't lose it again. (exception could be if it is plagiarism/if you copied it or if you commit a severe crime.) The title will always appear in your passport, in your address, in all official documents... Does the title of a medical doctor appear in his passport in the UK as well? (e.g. Dr Smith, Tom) Or only if you actually have written a doctoral thesis like in other academic disciplines? And will the title disappear if you are not a doctor anymore but a surgeon???

And now the question of all questions : A person from, e.g. Germany with a doctoral degree, is moving abroad to live and work there. Of course he will keep the title in the UK as well, doesn't he? Well, and what if this person is a fully trained surgeon with a doctoral degree? (Most surgeons have a doctoral degree here, so it is a likely scenario that must already have happened in reality.) Then he will be a surgeon with the title Dr... and not with the title Mr..., right? If he HAS to take the title Mr... because he is a surgeon, well, it would mean that he "loses" his doctoral degree, but this can't be, because you "can't" lose it. What now??? Would people in the UK be confused if "their" surgeon who is about to do the operation has the title "Dr" and not "Mr" like they would expect? Would they mistrust him to do the job right?

Last edited by Rache (March 10, 2018 11:58 am)

besleybean wrote:

I doubt many would either know nor care, to be honest!

Well, that's relieving!  
I wonder what would officially done, though, in the example I have given.^^
 

And I suppose the confusion proves that Culverton Smith's asking John "but are you a real doctor" wasn't all that far out of line ;)

(Seriously OT, for information of the non-Germans, in case anybody is interested: In Germany, and possibly France, students in the medical professions - veterinarians included - generally (used to) write a doctoral thesis in order to be able to use the title "Doctor". But the quality of these theses is a very far cry from what post-graduate students in other fields have to produce to obtain a Ph. D. I've read a French veterinary doctoral thesis which I probably could have written myself without even properly studying the field! And there are medical "doctors" in Germany that have not written a doctoral thesis, but I can't find out how they are adressed by their patients... However, it might explain why my dentist is called Mr. by the assistants.... And there are discussions at least in Germany (haven't searched for the situation in France) to change the rules" to align them with anglosaxon countries.)

There is one small detail that always bothered me about this episode (great as it is in general): During the argument between Sherlock and John at the psychatrist's house, we have this dialouge:

Sherlock: "... but when have I ever been a malingerer?"
John: "You pretended to be dead for two years!"
Sherlock: "Well.. apart from that..."

I had to look up the word "malingerer", and it seems to be a word used for those who fake an illness to avoid work or other unwanted duties. It annoys me that Sherlock sort of "agrees" to John calling him a malingerer, because to me, that was not at all what he was doing for those two years - quite the opposite!

I understand the entire scene is played for laughs, which in a way makes it worse. It's like they are taking what Sherlock actually did, and went through, for those two years and turned into a cheap joke. 

I suspect that I am taking this a bit too seriously, even reacting to it. What do you guys think? 

Yeah, it makes me think that Sherlock would just play along to go with his long-term plan.

But even so, it is played for laughs to the audience. 

I have a very different take on it. For me, now, the reunion scene is a display of Martin's best acting seen to date. (The restaurants scene in particular).

But, yeah, good of you mention, because it's not the first time they've done that. Played a serious scene as a joke to the audience. Which might be a reminder that we shouldn't take it too seriously.

Oh, and a comment to the well-often criticism of John in the well, being a handed a rope when he can't climb up. I don't think that was the only help he was given. I think he was first given the rope to have something to cling to so that he could get higher off the water. Then, someone would climb down and help him with the chain and help him up, they just didn't show the entire process. 

No, but it was an interesting comparison from you. I found the reunion scene (after the awesome acting) hilarious, but I didn't like the joke in TLD. But the gist of it is really the same.

Yeah, I can see that side of it. Then again, even in TLD, he is not faking it to avoid something uncomfortable - quite the opposite, again.

I don't mind Sherlock being confronted with lying, or doing drugs. Because he is prone to both those things. I have an issue with him being called a malingerer, and agreeing to it.