BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » let's discuss... dr Strange (spoilers)

Kittyhawk · November 7, 2017 12:57 pm

I don't think Dr. Strange had Asperger's... For that is actually the movie I'd love to discuss here, but nobody else seems interested

SusiGo · November 7, 2017 2:52 pm

Interesting discussion. My take on it: From what I read about Turing, arrogance was not really part of his personality. This may have been shown in the film but tbh, those are the moments where I get a Sherlock feeling. Turing may have suffered from Asperger or a related condition which made it difficult for him to assess and understand other people's behaviour, words, or hidden signals.

In my opinion the only one of these three who is truly arrogant is Stephen Strange. He is arrogant and too full of himself and this hubris leads to his downfall. He has to learn a bitter lesson in humility and his injuries and 100 percent self-inflicted.

As far as I know, the real Turing and Hawking were/are not arrogant in the way Strange is.

And for me the most fascinating thing about Doctor Strange is of course what happens after his downfall, how he learns the hard way how to heal himself (to a certain extent) and how to use his newfound powers as he did with his surgical skills in his old life.

Finally I would say that Sherlock and Doctor Strange have far more similarities than (real) Turing and Hawking.

Vhanja · November 7, 2017 9:09 pm

I agree with Susi. Turing wasn't arrogant, he simply lacked the social skills to understand that his bluntness could come across as arrogant or rude. Neither did I find Hawkings to be arrogant. There are also great differences between all these "geniuses" Ben has played.

As for Dr. Strange, yeah, I see some similarities to Sherlock, but only on the surface. Once you scratch a bit underneath, Steven Strange is actually quite a different character from Sherlock. Or so I see it, at least. For instance, he doesn't have that underlying insecurity that Sherlock has. He is completely self-assured, believes strongly in himself and is truly arrogant - it's not just a facade, it's who he is. He is also more of a womanizer, career-driven and materialistic - he embraces the world and it's luxury whereas Sherlock distances himself from it.

They both go through a journey to learn humility and to step down from their high horse, but they do so quite differently. But at the end of the day, they are both heroes, sacrificing their own private happiness for others. Dr. Strange for the world, Sherlock for his few, close friends (John in particular).

Kittyhawk · November 8, 2017 12:30 pm

Where do you see Dr. Strange (or, by the way, Sherlock?) sacrificing his own private happiness for others? That makes his actions sound planned and their results final, but "Dr. Strange will return" leaves plenty of time for future happiness. Possibly even with the woman who gave him a $ 20.000 watch while he was being an asshole to her... (how much do surgeons earn???)

And Dr. Strange's unhappiness over most of the film wasn't the result of some voluntary sacrifice, but of unsafe driving (shouldn't there have been legal consequences as well?)

miriel68 · November 8, 2017 5:29 pm

Kittyhawk wrote:
Where do you see Dr. Strange (or, by the way, Sherlock?) sacrificing his own private happiness for others?

And Dr. Strange's unhappiness over most of the film wasn't the result of some voluntary sacrifice, but of unsafe driving (shouldn't there have been legal consequences as well?)

Lol, I can see you are quite set against poor Stephen. Yes, his ruin was the result of his hubris and his recklessness, but it doesn't mean he was less unhappy because of this (probably even MORE unhappy, knowing he brought it on himself). As for earnings, I can imagine a top neurosurgeon earns well over six zeros a year, nonetheless, he went through his money rather quickly, when trying to find a cure.
Strange's sacrifice is to give up what he loved most and what he wanted to do in life: being a surgeon. He loved being rich and famous, of course, but underneath he was obsessed with his work and he desperately wanted it back. He didn't become a sorcerer because he wanted to cast spells: he hoped it would help him to have his old life back. So when he accepts his "destiny" to be a sorcerer supreme (or whatever it is called) it is a true sacrifice - since at this point he "could" have his hands back, thanks to the magic. It is handled quite beautifully, IMO, in the hospital scene.

Kittyhawk · November 9, 2017 11:45 am

miriel68 wrote:
....So when he accepts his "destiny" to be a sorcerer supreme (or whatever it is called) it is a true sacrifice - since at this point he "could" have his hands back, thanks to the magic. ...

I think events just got away from Dr. Stephen Strange (and by the way, what's that about him no longer being a Doctor? Are academic titles not part of the name in the U.S.?)

I mean, there he was training in Kamar Taj, just experimenting (for fun, for his personal education) with the spell from the Book of Cagliostro and the Eye of Agamotto and suddenly he gets pushed into the New York Sanctum by Kaecilius, must fight for his life against K and his zealots, gets saved by a sentient cloak and his ex-girlfriend, fights some more, tries to save The Ancient One and hop, discovers that Hongkong is destroyed.

The way I see it Dr. Strange was just scrambling, desperately trying to make the best of a bad situation in each instant. There was never a spare moment when he could have healed his hands - actually, I wouldn't be surprised if his experiment with turning back time was done with a view to going back to before the accicent. But there wasn't time for that either... (not to mention that I personally think Mordor and Wong are right and messing with time is a very bad idea)

miriel68 wrote:
...Yes, his ruin was the result of his hubris and his recklessness, but it doesn't mean he was less unhappy because of this (probably even MORE unhappy, knowing he brought it on himself)...

First of all, not necessarily, it would depend on Dr. Strange's psychological makeup. It may surprise you, but I find it actually reassuring to know that the accident that lead to my handicap was my own fault - not fate, not something I had no influence over. Because if an event is the result of my mistake, then I can avoid repeat events by not repeating the mistake.

Secondly, I never doubted that Dr. Strange was very unhappy over most of the movie. But I don't see getting into an accident as "sacrificing ones happiness". For me, a famous example of "sacrificing one's happiness" would be Rick Blaine sending Ilsa Lund off with Victor Laszlo in Casablanca (at least with regard to a traditional Hollywood happy end) - a conscious decision leading to (presumed) unhappiness, not a spontaneous heroic act born of necessity (they often enough lead to death or injury, anyway).

miriel68 wrote:
As for earnings, I can imagine a top neurosurgeon earns well over six zeros a year, nonetheless, he went through his money rather quickly, when trying to find a cure.

I wasn't so much speculating about Dr. Strange's earnings - we know that he earned a lot of money and spent is as quickly (Dr. Parker says so for those who are not familiar with New York real estate prices, watches and sports cars), which explains why it runs out pretty fast when he has to pay for experimental medical procedures, but about Dr. Parker's! She had enough spare money to make a $ 20K present (which I find absolutely mind-boggling!)

By the way, does anybody know what exactly is her function in the hospital? Dr. Strange calls the ER "your butcher's shop" yet she can't order him to work there, she calls him out of the OR, yet Dr. West declares "her" patient for dead.

Oh, and for the record: I have absolutely nothing against Dr. Strange - I quite like arrogant arseholes as long as the arrogance is justified (and if it's not it's fun to take them down a peg) - but looking at pictures while driving is absolutely unforgiveable in my opinion.

Last edited by Kittyhawk (November 9, 2017 11:48 am)

Vhanja · November 9, 2017 1:28 pm

Sherlock sacrificed his own happiness to save his friends when he jumped.

Dr. Strange did so when he could have healed his hands and gone back to be a world-leading surgeon, and instead chose to be a "superhero" and focusing on saving the world.

miriel68 · November 9, 2017 4:26 pm

Kittyhawk wrote:
I think events just got away from Dr. Stephen Strange (and by the way, what's that about him no longer being a Doctor? Are academic titles not part of the name in the U.S.?)

I mean, there he was training in Kamar Taj, just experimenting (for fun, for his personal education) with the spell from the Book of Cagliostro and the Eye of Agamotto and suddenly he gets pushed into the New York Sanctum by Kaecilius, must fight for his life against K and his zealots, gets saved by a sentient cloak and his ex-girlfriend, fights some more, tries to save The Ancient One and hop, discovers that Hongkong is destroyed.

The way I see it Dr. Strange was just scrambling, desperately trying to make the best of a bad situation in each instant. There was never a spare moment when he could have healed his hands - actually, I wouldn't be surprised if his experiment with turning back time was done with a view to going back to before the accicent. But there wasn't time for that either... (not to mention that I personally think Mordor and Wong are right and messing with time is a very bad idea)

Sorry to hear about your handicap and you are absolutely right about texting while driving - from that point of view I think the film gives a very effective warning, one is not likely to forget.

I don't think anyone ever suggested the incident has anything to do with the sacrifice: it simply put the things in motion. It is a very long journey from the hubris to the humility, and when Strange begins his training in Kamar-Taj, he is still focused on himself, only thinking about magic as an "instrument" to get back what he lost he isn't ready for being a hero, he even says so when Mordo and Wong tell him about Dormammu etc. and then he fights to save his life, not for some noble purpose - yet again Mordo tells him, rightly that "he lacks the spine".

So it is only in the hospital when he realizes that he could, in fact, use the magic to heal his hands, that he needs to take a decision: to be happy doing what he loves most - being the surgeon - or to accept his duty as the sorcerer supreme. There is no happiness in this path and I think it has been, too, shown in the movie, in the very last scene: the past is broken and he decided to accept it and to accept his loss. Not so different from Rick, after all

Btw, of course I know you are not "seriously" hostile to dr Strange. Just enjoying a hearty discussion.

Kittyhawk · November 10, 2017 11:52 am

miriel68 wrote:
.... to be happy doing what he loves most - being the surgeon - or to accept his duty as the sorcerer supreme. There is no happiness in this path and I think it has been, too, shown in the movie, in the very last scene: the past is broken and he decided to accept it and to accept his loss. Not so different from Rick, after all
.....

For the sake of discussion: I don't believe that Dr. Strange will be unhappy in his new career. (Btw: Has he really been declared Sorcerer Supreme at the end of the movie? From what I remember he could "just" be Guardian of the New York Sanctum.) Because the new role will still allow him to "save thousands" due to his special skills (or whatever the figure was he mentioned when talking to Dr. Parker after the bullet extraction at the beginning), he will be part - or top dog - of an even more elite group (even in Marvel Universe there must be more neurosurgeons than sorcerers- especially with Mordo killing off the latter), he'll get the chance to hang out with the super-rich and legendary famous ;) including gods, he'll get enormous respect, and let's face it - glowing portals beat even a Lamborghini Huracan for speed and exlusivity, and the Cloak of Levitation is way more cool than a watch that anybody can buy (not to mention more useful!)

Who's to say that little Stephen wouldn't have dreamt of growing up to be Sorcerer Supreme if he had known that the possibility existed? So I don't see any lack of professional happiness in Dr. Strange's future - and as far as relationships go, I think things with Dr. Parker look promising enough. Unless of course he falls for the Black Widow or the Scarlet Witch or... (I really want to see what happens when Dr. Strange and Wanda Maximoff meet!)

(Completely OT, and at the risk of stepping on the toes of Casablanca-lovers: I've never believed that Rick will be all that unhappy without Ilsa, I never bought them as a couple. Harry Morgan and Slim Browning in To Have and Have Not, on the other hand....)

Last edited by Kittyhawk (November 10, 2017 12:05 pm)

miriel68 · November 10, 2017 7:04 pm

Well, there are some perks to the job, no doubt about it (What about a super cool mansion in NYC?) and I don't think he will be particularly unhappy. It doesn't mean his choice isn't a sacrifice, though. I don't think it is his "dream job" in spite of all excitement. Strange is not a born hero: his first reaction when he heard about "infinite dangers" was to run away and forget all about it: as a sorcerer supreme (you are right, he is not one yet, still have to arrive) he will be in constant danger, fighting against new threats and menaces.

Still more important (and I liked very much they made that point in film) his new occupation can force him to do things he doesn't want to from the moral point of view: to harm or even kill "bad guys". You would agree that he doesn't look particularly radiant in the last shoot of the film

As for the Casablanca: much as I love the film, I don't think Rick will be particularly unhappy, either. And to let stay Ilsa with him would be really stupid: they could not possibly live happy and peaceful life in the context of German occupation.

Kittyhawk · November 11, 2017 6:48 pm

miriel68 wrote:
Well, there are some perks to the job, no doubt about it (What about a super cool mansion in NYC?)....

Yep, I wouldn't mind living in 177A Bleeker Street, provided I can do the cleaning with snipping my fingers (or whatever the spell requires) ;) (I mean, can you imagine cleaning all those glass cases?)

miriel68 wrote:
...Strange is not a born hero: his first reaction when he heard about "infinite dangers" was to run away and forget all about it...

Somehow I don't think anybody is a born hero ;) but I very much liked the scene when Dr. Strange wanted to get out of it all. Except then he gets blown into New York and must fight for his life whether he wants to or not - come to think of it, that was a rather cleverly written transition/transformation...

miriel68 wrote:
...Still more important (and I liked very much they made that point in film) his new occupation can force him to do things he doesn't want to from the moral point of view: to harm or even kill "bad guys". You would agree that he doesn't look particularly radiant in the last shoot of the film
.....

You are right about Dr. Strange not wanting to kill "bad guys", I had forgotten about that. Though one does get used to killing - I'm sure he will, too. Or find another way to deal with the baddies (what does he DO exactly in Thor Ragnarok?)

However, as far as the last shot of the film - or rather, the last we see from Dr. Strange (because the last scene is Mordo killing Jonathan Pangborn) - is concerned, I disagree: I thought Dr. Strange, when he said "Allow me to help you!" to Thor, looked pretty much like Sherlock when he's off on an interesting case (at least an 8!) But as I've returned the DVD, I can't compare any more - I just remember thinking that when watching the scene.

OT: If you haven't seen To Have And Have Not, I highly recommend it - I like it better than Casablanca (to which it is very similar, plot-wise - except instead of whiny doe-eyed Ingrid Bergman we get gorgeous tough Lauren Bacall - and a happy end before and behind the camera)

miriel68 · November 12, 2017 7:38 pm

You are right, of course, the last we see dr Strange is credit scene, but TBH I don't consider it a part of the man movie: it is a teaser for Ragnarok, which is a completely different tale, a light comedy, and dr Strange there is not really "the same" as in Derrickson's movie. Different aesthetic, different - even if apparently the same - character.

tonnaree · November 13, 2017 4:17 pm

Side note: Just for the record, Dr. Strange's scene in the new Thor movie is VERY funny.

besleybean · November 13, 2017 4:18 pm

It certainly is.

Kittyhawk · November 13, 2017 5:02 pm

Still not enough reason to go to the cinema to see it ;)

besleybean · November 13, 2017 5:22 pm

It's a great film!

Vhanja · November 14, 2017 2:05 pm

My hubbie will acquire it through other means, just so that I can watch that scene. Same with Black Panther for Martin.

And I don't even like these Marvel movies. All I do for fandom love...

miriel68 · November 14, 2017 4:13 pm

I am not a great Marvel lover, either, but have to admit Thor Ragnarok was rather funny. And Benedict has a great chemistry with Chris Hemsworth.

Kittyhawk · November 14, 2017 6:48 pm

Yes, Stephen Broussard emphasized that in the behind-the-scenes shots of the end credit scene in Dr. Strange: "I'm not sure if they had met before, but they got along great. And I think people are starting to know this about Chris, and they'll sure hopefully know this about Benedict Cumberbatch: They are both hilarious. They have both the best comedic timing. Especially for guys known as dramatic actors and as actions stars - [they are] some of the funniest guys you'll ever meet."

Now I really want to see Benedict Cumberbatch in a good comedy!

besleybean · November 14, 2017 6:50 pm

He's sometimes very funny in Sherlock!