I wouldn't say it's clear ... he seems to be asking Steven about writing a couple who it seems shouldn't/couldn't be attracted to each other, but are ("against every single instinct that they both have" as Steven says).  And in the show, they are attracted to each other (and both get caught out because of it).

However, as I've mentioned, I do get the feeling that Mark sees it as a more of a cerebral attraction, whereas Steven's is more "he fancies her" (but I may well be imagining this difference).  I tend to go along with Steven as he wrote Irene!   If there's any doubt, I think TLD and TFP clear it up. 
 

No, I definitely think they only had sex the one night in Karachi, since then it is just texting.

You mean like John only dating women, marrying a woman and having a child and Sherlock only ever being romantically linked to a woman?  Yes I agree, so do I.

SusiGo wrote:

So you would say occasional texting is Sherlock code for having sex? I do not get any "they did the thing" vibes from TLD. 
 

I like to think it's still a little ambiguous, but that might just be wishful thinking to fit in with my own interpretation!   However, I do think it's clear that there's romantic/sexual attraction, without a doubt.   And John seems to think they've physically had sex (as does Eurus). 

Although I've liked to think it didn't happen in Karachi, I could see it happening - by that point they have both been exposed - no point in hiding it.   And no danger of getting involved, as Irene has to "disappear". 

I suppose it would be even more fun if they really did occasionally meet at a Harvester!
 

I too have been thinking that the wedding waltz would have been macaber so soon after Mary's demise.

Besides, we should remember that Sherlock composed Irene's theme well before he could have slept with her. So Eurus picks on his state of mind at that moment in the past which is full of sad longing - Sherlock thought Irene dead. This is why this theme represents first of all Sherlock's human side for me. After composing it he could have slept with either Irene or John (if at all). Summarizing over the whole show, there's been shown more sad longing for John than for Irene hands down.

Sherlock obviously has a better and more full relationship with John, because they have flat shared, are colleagues and best friends.
As far as I'm aware, Irene is still in hiding, which would make any kind of relationship problematic anyway.
I think Sherlock is attracted to her, but he knows romance and relationships are messy and so just tries to avoid them.
But if he didn't care for Irene at all, he wouldn't even bother texting.
I am struggling with the logic here:  Sherlock writes a romantic song about a woman he's attracted to, before they actually consummate their relationship. So what, now they have done, it doesn't count?  In TV terms, that tune represents Irene and that is who Sherlock thought of when Eurus said: play you.  
Irene has his heart.

Oh heck I hadn't even realised that anybody thought Sherlock believed Irene dead!
Why would he, when they've been texting?!
Oh my goodness is it the: but he didn't really save her thing?
Why do people believe these things?
Steven was directly asked that question in interview and he said: yes, he did really save her.
That is why Irene WON. She made Sherlock save her.
Oh I am sorry, we're back to ancient history and we mean when she was allegedly on the slab?
Well he obviously didn't look at the body that closely or wasn't quite so intimate with her then.
Because he very definitely thought she was dead  then, hence the misty-eyed look on his way back from Battersea to 221 B.
She was alive after all!

Last edited by besleybean (May 28, 2017 8:20 am)

Oh, I cross-posted with you, BB!  So now I don't make sense.  (Although I kind of like the idea of a theory that Sherlock really thought Irene was dead all along!).   Yes, I meant when she was the slab (can't help hearing "come up to the lab, and see what's on the slab".

I was replying to Ewige's comment about Sherlock thinking Irene was dead when he wrote her theme.  I have a completely different take, but I don't see how it can be otherwise.  When he gets the phone, he must know that she's alive and faking her death.  If he thought she was about to die, then he'd try to save her, not tell Mycroft to look for a body.  And what's the point of telling Mycroft, other than to set him up to believe that Irene's dead?  And there's no way Sherlock could be fooled by a replacement body.  He has seen Irene naked, and has looked enough to judge her measurements accurately.   He has to be lying.  

Which fits with everything else that follows - Sherlock gets sucked in to colluding with Irene when he shouldn't, and helps her to fake her death and disappear.   I think when we understand all that at the end, we might also realise that he's been doing it all along!

Anyway, it's maybe not terribly relevant, but the upshot is that Sherlock is writing for an Irene who he believes is probably alive, and who he is hoping/waiting for some contact from. 

Hey, Liberty, it's nice to have someone that supports the alternative view on ASIB. IMO it's AT LEAST very possible and I like you actually can see it both ways. I'd love to know how it was intended by Moff.
I don't see Sherlock being shocked at the morgue, and while he's coming back from Battersee, he looks to me like he's computing frantically (these small rapid eye movements), because he still hasn't figured out her phone, and now he's kind of running out of time. He also might be pissed that Irene came to John to get her phone back instead of contacting him.
As for the "joy of redemption" - Irene letting Sherlock participate in her little game, made him prone to manipulation too imo.

I don't subscribe to the POV that the attraction was of a sexual kind, but it is still not an argument for Johnlock in my book.
The whole Irene theme to me seem to be about how people assume wrong things about Sherlock. Even Mycroft thought his little bro was suffering from a broken heart. But I digress.

JP wrote:

I don't subscribe to the POV that the attraction was of a sexual kind, but it is still not an argument for Johnlock in my book.

I don't intend it as an argument for johnlock. I just don't agree that Sherlock playing Irene's theme automatically means they've had sex, since he composed the tune in sadness, thinking she was dead.

Liberty wrote:

Ewige, on the other hand, why would he follow John if he didn't suspect something (Irene being alive)?

He wouldn't follow John to Mycroft so Sherlock probably recognized Kate. I'm good with him suspectimg Irene was alive, but I choose to think he didn't know for sure (I like it when Sherlock suffers. Yep).
In hindsight, the texting, the camera phone on the mantel... it's all too convenient for Irene to be in mortal danger shortly after, but again I prefer to interpret the shown evidence as Sherlock being fooled together with the viewers.
Him knowing she wasn't dead after the mortuary would add to the detective show but chip away from a show about the detective.

Last edited by ewige (May 28, 2017 9:49 am)