BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

Schmiezi · May 27, 2017 6:36 am

I would agree if we were talking about fan fic writers. But let's face it: Sherlock is business. At least the BBC is not doing it for love but for ratings and money.

What I see is that they added a character that has not been there before (Mary), and they took away most Johnlock hints, and in the end, the ratings of S4 hit an all time low.

When were we first informed that there may not be more Sherlock in the future? Maybe after S4, the BBC just does not want to Pay for it anymore, which would be extremely sad.

And another thought: if we agree thst they were writing S4 for themselves, true to what they really wanted to do, doesn't that mean S1 and 2 were not what they wanted?

Liberty · May 27, 2017 6:43 am

I think they always did (write what they wanted).   I suspected at one point that they were being careful not to alienate people who shipped them, and so wanted to leave some ambiguity there.   But later on, I thought that probably wasn't the case. I remember reading an interview where they said that they hadn't yet decided on Sherlock's sexuality in S1.   So any ambiguity about his sexuality in S1 isn't to please the viewers but to leave things open for them as writers as I suppose.

I also think they were always very clear when talking about the show that it was a friendship.   There was never any queer baiting. In fact, they brought the question up in the show several times, and made the answer clear, I think.   Starting with Mrs Hudson shipping them straight away in ASIP - I think it's absolutely clear to the audience at that point that they're not a couple!

I think that even the ending to TFP has nothing to do with trying to please everybody (or with being cowards). If they were trying to please everybody, they wouldn't have done something as self-indulgent (in a good way!) as TFP! I think the ending is just what they hinted they'd been planning to do all along - setting them up as the heroes of legend.    The fact that ships have been left open is incidental.    And I do think you have to squint a bit to try to see any of the ships (Sherlolly, Mystrade, etc.).   My feeling is that that the episode is good fuel for fanfiction, but those ships would not evolve naturally in S5, if it happened (not that they couldn't happen. Just that I don't think they have been set up. It just maybe feels that way because those relationships have been left in a positive place).

And I think that's particularly the case for Johnlock, because the whole show has been the story of their friendship.   A romance would change that story.

Last edited by Liberty (May 27, 2017 6:44 am)

Liberty · May 27, 2017 7:04 am

I also think it's a bit of a shame that they actually did something that hasn't really been appreciated - when they made a character who wasn't (at that point) going to be romantically involved, they didn't assume, or indicate that the audience should assume that he was straight. We're kind of invited to speculate about whether he's gay, straight, asexual, etc., but he's never "straight by default". (If he's maybe seen as straight later on, it's because the limited evidence shows that he's most likely to be, and not because people are straight unless proven otherwise).

besleybean · May 27, 2017 7:26 am

On all levels: well said, Liberty.

Vhanja · May 27, 2017 1:15 pm

I agree, good posts, Liberty.

Schmiezi · May 27, 2017 6:30 pm

Liberty wrote:
I think they always did (write what they wanted). I suspected at one point that they were being careful not to alienate people who shipped them, and so wanted to leave some ambiguity there. But later on, I thought that probably wasn't the case.

I wonder if they really cared about people who shipped Johnlock when doing S1. The ambiguity was there right from the start.

ewige · May 27, 2017 6:35 pm

Schmiezi wrote:
Liberty wrote:
I think they always did (write what they wanted). I suspected at one point that they were being careful not to alienate people who shipped them, and so wanted to leave some ambiguity there. But later on, I thought that probably wasn't the case.
I wonder if they really cared about people who shipped Johnlock when doing S1. The ambiguity was there right from the start.

I think they did everything to put this ambiguity there. To the point that it was barely ambiguous. But it's just my opinion, I know others don't see it this way.

Schmiezi · May 27, 2017 6:44 pm

ewige wrote:
Schmiezi wrote:
Liberty wrote:
I think they always did (write what they wanted). I suspected at one point that they were being careful not to alienate people who shipped them, and so wanted to leave some ambiguity there. But later on, I thought that probably wasn't the case.
I wonder if they really cared about people who shipped Johnlock when doing S1. The ambiguity was there right from the start.
I think they did everything to put this ambiguity there. To the point that it was barely ambiguous. But it's just my opinion, I know others don't see it this way.

I'm with you!

SusiGo · May 27, 2017 7:15 pm

Mark himself said they have been flirting with homoeroticism. And some may call it queerbaiting. Whatever you may call it, one cannot say that it was not there.

Vhanja · May 27, 2017 7:49 pm

I just noticed. When Eurus, who is supposedly both smarter than Mycroft and Sherlock, asks the moment she hears Sherlock play Irene's theme: "Oh, you've had sex?" - that is a very clear indication that Sherlock did hold some kind of sexual attraction towards her.

Schmiezi · May 27, 2017 7:55 pm

Vhanja wrote:
I just noticed. When Eurus, who is supposedly both smarter than Mycroft and Sherlock, asks the moment she hears Sherlock play Irene's theme: "Oh, you've had sex?" - that is a very clear indication that Sherlock did hold some kind of sexual attraction towards her.

I wonder: did she state a fact, or did she just want to throw Sherlock off balance with her comment?

Vhanja · May 27, 2017 8:03 pm

But it is quite telling that she does the moment he plays Irene's theme? It's a deliberate way from the writers to again link Sherlock and Irene in a sexual way.

Last edited by Vhanja (May 27, 2017 8:04 pm)

Schmiezi · May 27, 2017 8:13 pm

Aren't we following amonormativity again? In the show, there is not a single hint that they had sex. And yet, most people (including Benedict ;-) assume they shared more than a battle of intellect and seduction.

Vhanja · May 27, 2017 8:31 pm

It might be from the writer's side, but it still a rather obvious link between Sherlock, sex and Irene.

Liberty · May 27, 2017 9:12 pm

I don't know if it has to mean that they had sex, but I think it does mean that that Sherlock's feelings towards Irene are romantic/sexual. Why else would Eurus pick on that? We know it's Irene's theme. (And I suppose this was one for the fans, as the very casual viewer would likely not recognise the tune!).

It's not amonormativity . I think the "amo" between Sherlock and Irene is pretty explicit.

ewige · May 27, 2017 9:13 pm

I still say that Irene's theme represents Sherlock's (mostly hidden) human side, his hypothetical ability to have sex Not necessarily with Irene.

besleybean · May 27, 2017 9:15 pm

Well I think I am agreeing with Liberty.
Pretty obvious to me: Eurus tells Sherlock to play him.
He plays Irene's theme.
Eurus deduces he's had sex.
Sherlock has had sex with Irene.

Vhanja · May 27, 2017 9:17 pm

I agree with Liberty. I didn't mean that they necessarily had sex. Only that it shows that Sherlock did, in some way or other, experience sexual interest towards Irene.

JP · May 27, 2017 9:40 pm

Is watching shows, and being fans of shows THAT MUCH about shipping, that the makers would think about possibility of any ships at the moment they didn't even know, if anyone would ever watch and like it?

IMO watching shows with such a stress on shipping takes away a great part of the actual perception. Sorry, I still cannot wrap my head around, why people do it AT ALL.

besleybean · May 27, 2017 9:42 pm

I really don't think any of the BBC Sherlock team have any interest in shipping at all.
They just try and write realistic characters, as true to the Canon as they feel they can...updating them of course.