Let's hope so!

I suppose it's just a different way of doing it.  They made Moriarty and Mary recurring characters instead of tied to more or less one-off stories, and I suppose that makes us feel invested in them.  The same with Mycroft, who wasn't such a big character in the canon. 

And also with Sherlock and John's relationship, instead of being a steadfast, unchanging relationship, that they never really talk about it, it's  relationship which goes through trials and development, and they do talk about it.  

I don't know if one approach is better than the other ... I wonder if the format had something to do with as well.  Maybe Moftiss' approach works better on screen.

Exactly, balance in the Universe.

It had to be.  John was not that heartless and would have chosen a woman who could love deeply.

SusiGo wrote:

tobeornot221b wrote:

Just some thoughts.

I've always liked Mofftiss taking liberties of the canon.
It's very often so clever and funny and well written and surprising – just wonderful!
 
But.
Imho with the whole Mary business, however, they strayed too far from the spirit of the canon and they somehow didn't do themselves and us a favour by doing that.
They didn't get their act together by dumping her on time. Which for me would have been at the end of series 3. (And no baby – that goes without saying. Sometimes I even think that the baby was just a plot device to justify the title "The Sign of Three"...)
 
Originally a marginal figure in the canon, Mary receives here excessive attention over no less than six episodes – 50 percent of the whole series (plus TAB).
 
This results in an imbalance of the narration and somehow pushes Sherlock and John to the verge.
I think this is exactly the point ACD had wanted to avoid by not letting any other character (not even Moriarty) take over leadership of his perfectly attuned couple. As far as I remember there is also no serious long-time rift within the two of them in the canon. But here there is. (Why in the first place? Just to take the beforehand announced "darker" path? And why? Did anyone order this? Who wants the spirit between them destroyed? Mary's long stay is partly responsible for this.)
 
By means of a – that is what comes to my mind - quickly put together "happy end" Mofftiss try to restore the original state of the Sherlock-and-John team.
Which I dont find too convincing at this point. "Schnell noch die Kurve kriegen", one would say in German.
 
But with a series 5, of course, Mofftiss could mend all things for me by going back to the crime solving, fantastic functioning couple in the sense of the canon. I so want the spirit back! And hopefully they won't ever let anyone Marylike push themselves between them.
 

I completely agree with you, tobe. There is an imbalance in the show - a show that had worked brilliantly for six episodes. After S2 the response was never as good as before and while there may be several reasons for that, I am sure that the lost focus on Sherlock and John was one of the most important. Of course the writers are free to write whatever they want - but then the audience is free to like it or not. 

P.S. The fact that Mary's sacrifice happens in an over the top and - what is worse - physically completely impossible way may be a reason that parts of the audience and the critics were not impressed.

Last edited by SusiGo (May 23, 2017 6:57 am)

Liberty wrote:

They made Moriarty and Mary recurring characters instead of tied to more or less one-off stories, and I suppose that makes us feel invested in them.  The same with Mycroft, who wasn't such a big character in the canon. 

But Moriarty and mycroft more or less played the same roles that ACD invented for them in the Canon. You can see that Andrew actually acts as a main character only in "The Reichenbach Fall" as it should be, in other episodes he only acts as an unseen menace or an apparition from the grave, which is acceptable even for Canon buffs. Mycroft too has a more prominent role, but not in such a way as to contradict the Canon.

But Mary not only strays from the Canon completely, she also contradicts the BBC series canon by being a new character with every episode. She cannot be compared with any other canonical character that way....

I suppose it doesn't really bother me - I don't have a burning desire to see canonical Mary, and I do think the character Moftiss created is more interesting.  I think she was a bit of a mystery in S3, but I think S4 clears it up - she seems inconsistent because we're shown different aspects and information is withheld for plot reasons.   But I do think it all comes together - well, as much as it does for the other characters (who also have some inconsistencies, but I think are still coherent characters). 

Other adaptations have been cavalier with the canon too.  It's not a big deal for me.  With Mary in particular, I don't think there was ever any intention to recreate canon Mary.  Some aspects of her story are used, but "our" Mary probably borrows from other characters and influences, and is invented.  It seems they decided to use John marrying a woman called Mary, who apparently dies, as a basis, but the character is somebody completely different.

I remember they talked a lot about canon Mary's death being barely talked about - that Holmes just mentions Watson's bereavement, then they get on with the stories.  Now, it would have been quite funny if they had done that in the series, but I think it would have seemed odd.  I like that they've made Mary's death part of the story.  There's a reason for it, and consequences of it, and it affects John and Sherlock deeply.  Not canon, but possibly works better than canon in this particular context. 

Before S4, Johnlockers were saying that the relationship between Sherlock and John had to develop. They were already best friends, so in what way - except Johnlock - could we have a change and/or development in their relationship?

And bringing a rift to the point of almost hatred between them (well, at least from one to the other), which lead to character development and finally reconciliation on better and more mature grounds was the answer.

That kind of rift was something we hadn't had in the show so far, so it makes sense to me in retrospect. A great way to develop them both even further, and getting them to actually talk to each other about anything deeper than a case.

Vhanja wrote:

Before S4, Johnlockers were saying that the relationship between Sherlock and John had to develop. They were already best friends, so in what way - except Johnlock - could we have a change and/or development in their relationship?

And bringing a rift to the point of almost hatred between them (well, at least from one to the other), which lead to character development and finally reconciliation on better and more mature grounds was the answer.

That kind of rift was something we hadn't had in the show so far, so it makes sense to me in retrospect. A great way to develop them both even further, and getting them to actually talk to each other about anything deeper than a case.

In terms of providing the ground for character developement, I love S4. But only because I truely believe in S5. If S4 should really be the last, we would be deprived of seeing that developement on screen.

My problem with Mary is still that what we get in S4 is not consistent to what was built up in S3.

Either there are still some dark secrets undiscovered, or the writing is very poor. And I just cannot make myself believe in poor writing by Mofftiss. :-/

Liberty wrote:

Yes, and it seems it needed this particular version of Mary to bring that about.  That development (between John and Sherlock) didn't happen in canon.

Everybody sees things their own way, of course, so I am not arguing with that - but for me the whole thing seemed rather like a dissolvement of friendship than a development of it.
Also, intruducing the new character and centering so much action around her can hardly be called a development of two original characters.
 

Last edited by nakahara (May 23, 2017 11:36 am)

Vhanja wrote:

I don't see the inconsitency myself. But, yeah, I would love to see more of that development!

Mary said John would stop loving her if he knew about her past. Magnussen called her a "bad, Bad girl".

Yet, in S4 we only learn that she was a super hero special agent with a sense of family who was a victim herself.

That is the biggest inconsistency I can think of right now.