BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Are you satisfied with TFP as an ending for the series?

besleybean · March 24, 2017 7:55 am

I don't see any supernatural element to Eurus and I too would certainly have problems with that if it was the case.
I don't think Mark and Steven would do that to us, as their Sherlock clearly has no trucks with the supernatural. So again if people thought that had changed, I could understand why they would be disappointed
Eurus is clever and she manipulates people, particularly their vulnerabilities.
I have to disagree with you on the sex. Sherlock for me clearly has had sex with Irene and that is what Eurus picks up on.
You mean why he chooses a celibate life? Because he learned that emotions caused pain... and he's right, part of the human condition.

Certainly the treatment of poor Eurus appears shocking, but they try and explain that by the fact that any doctor who approached was mentally destroyed or at least manipulated...you do hear of doctors citing extremely dangerous and manipulative patients.
But Mycroft was manipulated by her, he brought her Moriarty.
Well she recently had a few outings as the psychiatrist, E and pretending to be Miss Culverton. She could easily get the security switched off and get internal cohorts to cover for her...it was made clear the governor was out of control. I am sure external crime networks got all the stuff she needed.

Vhanja · March 24, 2017 9:12 am

I agree, Susi, that I think Mary got too big a role in the show. I would have preferred if her role was diminished somewhat. And I do see how Eurus is bordering on being supernatural. Then again, so is Sherlock (being able to "deduce" that Molly would be at the door at the exact moment John asks about a second opinion is nothing short of magical - and so is most of his deductions/predictions in TLD). I don't have a problem with this. I handwave it away just as I do with Sherlock having no physical or mental aftermath issues with torture in Serbia, John's issues being resolved a bit too quickly to be realistic, both Sherlock and John acting so horrible towards each other over the years that in real life I would have recommended them to run away from each other etc. It's a TV-show, not reality.

There are probably some plot holes, there always are in any show or movie, but I don't think they bother me much seeing as I can't even remember any at the top of my head. (Eurus could get out and get all the stuff she wanted because she was actually running the place. As for Sherlock not having sex, he didn't want romance/sex to come in the way of, or distract him from "cold, hard reason" and The Work).

So, yes, Mofftiss made some choices that I hadn't preferred myself, but that is to be expected. Firstly because it's their show and their vision, and secondly, the chance of their vision being the exact same as the one in my head is incredibly small.

So this leads me back to what I mentioned once on a similar thread. When I become a fan - when I fall madly in love with something - I go where they lead me. I adapt to where the show (book, movie, game etc) is going, I can't expect the show to adapt to me. So things like plot holes and stuff that isn't really that realistic becomes very minor in my head, because my love for the show overshadows what I view as minor stuff. And if the story or the development goes a different direction than I thought it would, I take a moment to regroup in my head and then I follow again, eager to see where this new path might lead me.

I want to call it loyal, but that might lead to some people thinking that if they view it differently they might be seen as disloyal. Which of course they wouldn't. I am only trying to explain how I personally see it and why I see it the way I do.

SusiGo · March 24, 2017 10:28 am

I see what you mean but my opinion is a bit different. I think I can be a fan of something and still view it critically, to clearly state what I like and what I do not like. It is a bit as in a personal relationship. You can love and cherish someone without overlooking or ignoring their mistakes.

My problem is not in having them go in a different direction than I wished for - they are the authors, they decide. But if the direction they go for seems to deviate too far from what they did before and what they have always said they were doing, I should have the right to say so.

I do not think that this has anything to do with being loyal or not, I would call it critical. And one can be critical about a thing one loves.

Vhanja · March 24, 2017 10:33 am

Oh, absolutely, you can be criticial about a thing you love. I am criticial too, as I stated there are things I am not too big a fan of and things I would have preferred differently. But for me, my love for the show overshadows those flaws in such a way that they become very small in my head. They don't really matter that much too me.

And I hope I have never come across as if I mean you don't have a right to state your opinion. I am only trying to explain why I hold the view I have, and why I am content with the ending. (And also to nuance the statement about how many are dissatisfied, as many fans actually are happy about it too).

SusiGo · March 24, 2017 10:48 am

Not at all, everything is fine, Vhanja.
And this is a very interesting thread which, again, shows the civilised way of discussion in here.

Vhanja · March 24, 2017 11:02 am

And just to show that I can be properly critical towards this show - the batman scene from the pilot wasn't just a bit not good, it was so bad I cringe everytime I see it and hide behind a pillow. Good God, what where they thinking?!

dioscureantwins · March 24, 2017 2:00 pm

SusiGo wrote:
I see what you mean but my opinion is a bit different. I think I can be a fan of something and still view it critically, to clearly state what I like and what I do not like. It is a bit as in a personal relationship. You can love and cherish someone without overlooking or ignoring their mistakes.

My problem is not in having them go in a different direction than I wished for - they are the authors, they decide. But if the direction they go for seems to deviate too far from what they did before and what they have always said they were doing, I should have the right to say so.

I do not think that this has anything to do with being loyal or not, I would call it critical. And one can be critical about a thing one loves.

I agree with everything you're saying here SusiGo. A huge part of my current distress regarding the series is caused by the fact that many of the choices and actions in S3 and S4 don't feel like character development but rather diminishment of the both Sherlock and John, but also Mycroft and even Mrs Hudson and Jim. Sherlock and Mycroft simply are the cleverest people you'll ever meet, period. Doesn't mean their necessarily nice. That notion was so lacking in all of S3 and S4.

dioscureantwins · March 24, 2017 2:02 pm

Vhanja wrote:
And just to show that I can be properly critical towards this show - the batman scene from the pilot wasn't just a bit not good, it was so bad I cringe everytime I see it and hide behind a pillow. Good God, what where they thinking?!

Oh dear, I actually love that scene. And see it as a wonderful prequel to that amazing rooftop chase in ASiP.

JP · March 24, 2017 8:31 pm

ewige wrote:
As for the raised question... My brain is satisfied with TFP as the ending, my heart isn't.

With me it's the other way round.
My heart is satisfied. With the brilliant performances and choice of the actors. I love how the story makes a full circle back to the point where ACD stories began - even if it's made in a cheesy way…
Was there not my brain symbolically head-desking and crying in despair: "BUT IT MAKES NO SENSE!!"

Just to many WTF moments for my disbelieve to stay suspended.

athameg · March 26, 2017 9:40 am

I think series 4 was partially a makeshift. It was very difficult to get all the actors together again because all of them are so very busy, so they had to reckon with the possibility that a series 5 would be impossible. So they needed a finale that would work as the end of the series. And I think TFP works for that. I don't like every detail of it, but a lot of important questions which have remained open until now, have been answered. Overall it is an acceptable ending.

And what JP writes I have already thought: "the story makes a full circle back to the point where ACD stories began". At the end of TFP Sherlock and John are so far in their personal development that they really are the ACD characters. In a way we are now exactly at the place where the other film adaptions begin. And therefore it would be exciting to continue, really.

besleybean · March 26, 2017 9:49 am

Good points.

James Norrington · March 26, 2017 2:50 pm

I'm not satisfied TFP to being anything, it's still unbearable for me, but I'd say better end the show now before they make it even worse. That's just my opinion, not a popular one I know but I really love the first two series to bits and will go on to do so.

miriel68 · March 26, 2017 3:13 pm

I remember Moftiss saying that they had an idea for the 4th and 5th season: somehow I've got an idea that in the end they crammed everything they wanted to do in 2 seasons in just one. Already in the 3rd season I had a feeling that the things were going too fast, but here it was as if everybody were shouting "we need to wrap it up! Now! hurry!".

besleybean · March 26, 2017 3:25 pm

I agree, fortunately I enjoyed the result!

ewige · March 26, 2017 5:08 pm

miriel68 wrote:
I remember Moftiss saying that they had an idea for the 4th and 5th season: somehow I've got an idea that in the end they crammed everything they wanted to do in 2 seasons in just one. Already in the 3rd season I had a feeling that the things were going too fast, but here it was as if everybody were shouting "we need to wrap it up! Now! hurry!".

Yep, same here.
Ben has a new baby now and tons of own project in the pipeline. It feels like he's done with Sherlock so TPTB had to wrap everything up pretty quickly.

besleybean · March 26, 2017 5:10 pm

Yes, I'm not sure if it was Benedict alone who was the problem...will we ever know?

ewige · March 26, 2017 5:17 pm

besleybean wrote:
Yes, I'm not sure if it was Benedict alone who was the problem...will we ever know?

Well they always say Ben and Martin, and while I don't hear much about Martin, Ben's schedule looks like he thought, Yay, now I'm free to do ANYTHING! lol

besleybean · March 26, 2017 5:20 pm

I don't blame any actor taking the range of work they want and Benedict and Martin are probably both at their peak right now, may as well grab what they can.
On a personal level, Martin may be more of a free agent now.

Last edited by besleybean (March 26, 2017 7:36 pm)

This Is The Phantom Lady · March 26, 2017 7:34 pm

I believe in series 5... and if we get a series 5 I'll also be hoping for a 6th... that's me. I love the show too much to give up on it.

But I really do believe in a next season... maybe not next year, but maybe the year after... I can wait.

I think, I guess it could be an okay open ending in case they can't make more for some reason (but hey, I doubt that it won't happen if you give them time to work it out. It's very possible at least in my head...)

I don't think I can answer the question properly... my wanting and needing a new series colours my reply here.

JP · March 26, 2017 7:36 pm

Feel the same about S4 being rushed. But it also feels somehow… sloppy, even if I cannot point out any significant moments.