BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » TLD

SusiGo · March 16, 2017 8:55 pm

Mary has never even mentioned the hat. Irene did. Therefore it seems at least highly improbable that Sherlock should know that John keeps talking to Ghost Mary who in turn tells Sherlock to wear the hat. Sorry, but this does not make sense to me. Just as both of them talking to dead Mary in their heads. I cannot remember any Holmes Watson duo who needed such spiritual guidance.

besleybean · March 16, 2017 8:57 pm

I don't think it's spiritual guidance at all, it's just one step on from using a sounding board.
They are working out things for themselves, but as they are grieving - they have Mary in mind.

SusiGo · March 16, 2017 9:02 pm

I understand what you mean. But what does not work is that these internal monologues bleed into reality. Sherlock and John communicating via telepathy? Not sure about that.

besleybean · March 17, 2017 6:33 am

Families often seem to have a form of telepathy(though I am uncomfortable with that word), so for me it's not such a great stretch for two close friends to share this...and I'm certainly prepared to accept it in a TV show.

SusiGo · March 17, 2017 8:58 am

I am not. Not in this show. Supernatural or Doctor Who, fine. But not on Sherlock. Two men, both imagining a dead wife and one knowing exactly how she appears in the other one's mind - not really. This is too much of a stretch for me.

Sherlock Holmes · March 17, 2017 12:41 pm

Just because Mary never mentioned it on screen when she was alive, that doesn't mean that she didn't like the hat. Perhaps she talked about the hat on more than one occasion off screen and was rather fond of it. Otherwise, why else would John imagine her saying that in his head. Ghost Mary is NOT real. She is a figment of John's imagination and he therefore either projects his own thoughts/feelings into it or (and this seems more likely and in keeping with what we've seen on screen), imagines what Mary would say because he knows her so well.

Everything that happened at the end is clearly real, as Sherlock is sober by this point and not high off his mind on drugs. It was fairly obvious to me that Sherlock successfully deduced that John was talking to Ghost Mary. I mean, that's actually not a difficult deduction at all considering he stared at nothing and spoke out loud to nothing.

And if he knew that Mary liked the hat, then he would wear it.

nakahara · March 17, 2017 1:02 pm

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
And if he knew that Mary liked the hat, then he would wear it.

Why? Her likes are a law to him?

nakahara · March 17, 2017 1:14 pm

nakahara wrote:
Sherlock Holmes wrote:
And if he knew that Mary liked the hat, then he would wear it.
Why? Her likes are a law to him?

I mean - Sherlock absolutely refused to wear dear antlers for Mrs. Hudson at Christmas, although he likes Mrs. Hudson very much. Why would he suddenly wear a hat he hates and looks ridiculous in for Mary? Mary has once again an overprivileged status in comparison with other characters in this.

miriel68 · March 17, 2017 4:07 pm

Well, but the hat is special and he only pretends to hate it: it was obvious in the series 3 already, wasn't it? He put it in TEH because he is Sherlock Holmes and he wears the hat

besleybean · March 17, 2017 5:10 pm

Quite so.

Liberty · March 17, 2017 6:18 pm

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
Everything that happened at the end is clearly real, as Sherlock is sober by this point and not high off his mind on drugs. It was fairly obvious to me that Sherlock successfully deduced that John was talking to Ghost Mary. I mean, that's actually not a difficult deduction at all considering he stared at nothing and spoke out loud to nothing.

Yes, I think that given Sherlock is a master of deduction, it must be quite obvious to him that John is talking to Mary. I also think it's very normal for people to talk to dead people whom they were very close to and used to talking to.

I think the hat is part of the legend too - even if Mary doesn't say it directly in her last message, it's kind of symbolic. A deerstalker has become a Sherlock Holmes hat in the real world. In their world, it seems to be what the public wants and expects - whatever insecurities and difficulties they have underneath, outwardly they are capable of being those heroes the world wants.

besleybean · March 17, 2017 10:25 pm

It represents their work and that is what gives their lives meaning.

Schmiezi · March 21, 2017 6:12 pm

I've got one question for all of you:

Without knowing about the interview, who would have answered "Because Mary liked it" if you had been asked why Sherlock wears the stupid hat now?

besleybean · March 21, 2017 6:14 pm

I honestly don't know if he wears it as testimony to Mary...I think he does it wear it to show he is back to being Sherlock Holmes, the detective.

SusiGo · March 21, 2017 6:16 pm

I would never have come up with this, Schmiezi.

ewige · March 21, 2017 6:45 pm

besleybean wrote:
They are working out things for themselves, but as they are grieving - they have Mary in mind.

I so rarely agree with bb that I have to do it now in writing
No matter how surreal it is, I too think that Sherlock grieves for Mary (just not as obviously as John) and "hears" her because he's heartbroken too. It's supernatural that the ghost "tells" them both the same thing, but I really don't care

And I never thought that Sherlock would always wear the hat now (like ACD's Holmes supposedly does) based on that one post-hug scene tag! I mean, where's the hat in TFP (not counting the comic relief scene here)? No, I think he just put it on that one time in the spirit of the moment however doesn't wear it for many years to come as a nod to Mary

Last edited by ewige (March 21, 2017 6:50 pm)

besleybean · March 21, 2017 6:54 pm

I didn't actually realise we disagreed that much...

ewige · March 21, 2017 7:15 pm

besleybean wrote:
I didn't actually realise we disagreed that much...

Not much, but we disagree very vocally on a couple of topics
And you know, passionate discussions tend to be remembered longer

besleybean · March 21, 2017 7:17 pm

I guess so...