BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Still unexplained secrets?

besleybean · February 9, 2017 7:27 pm

Well he is Trevor, but you know...Victor is nicer!

Lis · February 9, 2017 7:45 pm

Ah that he is and it is nicer to call him by his first name, I just mixed them up in my hasty posting haha

Last edited by Lis (February 9, 2017 7:46 pm)

ewige · February 9, 2017 8:35 pm

I actually like the idea of Sherlock reconnecting with his emotional side and thusly being able to manage his ruthless side that's symbolically pictured as Eurus.

The symbolism appeals to me a lot.

But I think it's just the symbolism and not reality of Sherlock and Eurus being one and the same person. I'd say - because the style of the show doesn't support scratching two seasons' worth of events to restart who knows when, but then... TFP wasn't really the style of the show we are used to, either... And I'd love for the inconsistencies to have a meaning... *sigh*

About Eurus' room: every child is bound to have tons of books by the age of 5 in their room. So their absence is really weird without making Eurus less of a genuis. The books must be somewhere. So we either don't see them or she's allowed to use the library.

besleybean · February 9, 2017 8:37 pm

Possibly she was such a child prodigy she read her old brothers' books and even those of her parents.

Liberty · February 9, 2017 9:03 pm

Schmiezi wrote:
Maybe Mycroft talks Sherlock into being stupid so he won't become the same broken disturbed genius as Eurus.

I kind of like this idea. Especially as Mycroft turns out to be so, so human and caring in TFP too. There's something a bit lonely about Mycroft, and maybe he doesn't actually want Sherlock following in his footsteps either, never mind Eurus's.

SusiGo · February 9, 2017 9:25 pm

Yes, the thought has its merits. If I have learned something from TFP about Mycroft, it is that well-meant does not equal well. He meant well when talked Sherlock into believing that caring was not an advantage, that hearts got broken. He meant well when he talked his parents into believing that their daughter was dead. He meant well when he incarcerated his sister to protect the world from her and her from the world. But in the end he caused sadness and heartbreak.

besleybean · February 9, 2017 9:28 pm

I think with Eurus, he dealt with an horrendous situation in the best way he could.
Actually, he carried on what Uncle Rudy had started.

Kae Em · February 10, 2017 4:39 pm

I also don't agree that Sherlock was pictured as "the family idiot". The fact that Eurus and Mycorft probably have a higher IQ than Sherlock doesn't make Sherlock an "idiot". And I also don't think that Mycroft seriously thinks that Sherlock is stupid. I think he used to "tease" his brother to challange him, to push him to be as good and as smart as he could be. And it worked: For example in the mind palace scene in HLV, Sherlock first doesn't realize that the bullet is still inside him. But then he wants to prove to Mycroft that he's not actually stupid and it's only then that he realizes that he hadn't heard the glass of the mirror behind him break and therefore the bullet was still inside him. So the motivation of proving to Mycroft that he's not stupid actually saved his life.

Last edited by Kae Em (February 10, 2017 4:41 pm)

besleybean · February 10, 2017 4:41 pm

Good point.

Schmiezi · February 10, 2017 4:44 pm

Kae Em wrote:
I also don't agree that Sherlock was pictured as "the family idiot". Just because Eurus and Mycorft probably have a higher IQ than Sherlock this doesn't make Sherlock an "idiot". And I also don't think that Mycroft seriously thinks that Sherlock is stupid. I think he used to "tease" his brother to challange him, to push him to be as good and as smart as he can be,. And it worked: For example in the mind palace scene in HLV, Sherlock first doesn't realize that the bullet is still inside him. But then he wants to prove to Mycroft that he's not actually stupid and it's only then that he realizes that he hadn't heard the glass of the mirror behind him break and therefore the bullet was still inside him. So the motivation of proving to Mycroft that he's not stupid actually saved his life.

Well, he flatlined anyway. What really prevented him from dying was his inner Moriarty telling him "John Watson is in danger."

But that leads me to another unanswered question: what danger was it? I always assumed that Mary was dangerous for him and took that as a proof for Evil!Mary. But now that Mary was not that evil at all, what danger was it that John has been in?

Last edited by Schmiezi (February 10, 2017 4:45 pm)

besleybean · February 10, 2017 4:47 pm

Again, I think we are just seeing what Sherlock imagines.
Remember he hadn't fully processed Mary and certainly hadn't had it out with her at that time, so he didn't know 100% John was not in danger...he didn't know what CAM had on her and what she would do.

Liberty · February 10, 2017 6:08 pm

Yes, he is clearly completely surprised and confused by Mary at that point. He hasn't worked it out. All he knows is that she apparently tried to kill him after he was sure she wouldn't, and that John is about to walk in and possibly get shot too.

I don't think Mycroft thinks Sherlock is stupid (and possibly Daddy Holmes is actually the family idiot in a family of geniuses, not Sherlock). I remember his conversation about them meeting other children - he seems to include Sherlock in his very small group of people who are intelligent to the extent that it puts them in a different world from the goldfish.

Kae Em · February 10, 2017 8:07 pm

Schmiezi wrote:
Well, he flatlined anyway. What really prevented him from dying was his inner Moriarty telling him "John Watson is in danger."

Agreed, but if he hadn't first figured out which way to fall to minimize the blood loss, he would have lost too much blood and not even made it to the hospital alive. Anway, my point was that in Sherlock's mind, Mycroft challenging him not to be stupid is actually a positive thing, because it makes him focus and helps him be as smart as he can.

I like to imagine that Sherlock probably was a bit lazy or reluctant when it came to studying (remeber how he doesn't know the basics of the solar system?). So his parents probably were sometimes cross with him because he didn't work/study as hard as he could. So Mycroft came up with his "am I so much smarter than you" routine to make him work harder and do better, because of course little Sherlock would want to prove to his older brother (and his parents) that he wasn't stupid at all.

Last edited by Kae Em (February 10, 2017 8:15 pm)

besleybean · February 10, 2017 8:09 pm

And it works!

Kae Em · February 10, 2017 8:16 pm

Indeed

BLS_Pro · February 13, 2017 1:37 am

WhoIWantToBe wrote:
My reading on this is all about Sherlock's reply of "well, now you do". That is a pretty sarcastic comment, and I took it as such in this context. It is super surprising that John doesn't know after all this time, funerals and weddings when Sherlock's actual day of birth is, and given that Sherlock never freely offers anything about himself without being prompted I don't think he deliberately hid it. A lot of people, especially as we get older, don't bother to learn my birthday including really close friends, and we don't really want to celebrate them either haha. The celebration of it is kind of reserved for a social occasion in our youth, so from experience something tells me this scene was written for Sherlock to be a bit unwanting of the attention, and then John changed his plans to include Molly and Sherlock in the outing for cake :D

I actually took the Happy Birthday a different way. From the start of the series, Moffat has always stated Sherlock is a "bad man" and that the show is his journey to becoming "a good man". At the end of T6T, with Mary's death, Sherlock finally recognized he had a problem - that he placed ego over empathy - and sought to change himself. The example that he does this is his acceptance of Mary's case "Save John Watson". He does not take the case out of ego, but out of love for John. This is a first for him. It demonstrates he is a new person. And John recognizes this fact, thus the deduction "Happy Birthday". While it may be a literal fact, the metaphorical fact and recognition is far more important and thematically relevant.

besleybean · February 13, 2017 8:16 am

I think John's was a straight forward deduction and I didn't really see any proper sarcasm from Sherlock in return, it is guy banter. They don't always bother about things like birthdays and let's face it, it's not something Sherlock would have gone on about.If John had wanted to find out he could have done, but why would he bother? It's not really important.
Yes I think it's included here as a kind of welcoming Sherlock back to the real world and indeed showing his growing humanity.

EDIT: oh and I've just remembered, I'd thought of one of my own!
Tho it's not to do with TFP
In HLV, how did Irene know Sherlock was in hospital?

Last edited by besleybean (February 13, 2017 8:25 am)

Liberty · February 13, 2017 5:49 pm

Possibly she kept tabs on him, but possibly she just saw it in the news. (Although I keep forgetting that that scene isn't strictly canon!)

I also think the Happy Birthday is just a nice thing for John to say, part of his apologising. It was an ideal opportunity to make fun of him, or to berate him for keeping secrets (Sherlock let John think he was grieving) but he doesn't. There's a subtext of "It's OK, I understand".

besleybean · February 13, 2017 5:52 pm

Aw on the last one...
as for the Irene point:
Possibly a plot hole, but not really important.

SusiGo · February 13, 2017 10:02 pm

Besley, I think we see the flowers and the "W" card only in the deleted scene, right? But then they chose to publish it. You are right, it is a plothole, same as the Pentonville prisoners who sent flowers. Which, by the way, leads me to another curious thing - why do the papers we see in HLV not mention that Sherlock was shot? They only give us the sex gossip spread by Janine.