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January 20, 2017 5:06 pm  #4761


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Well I loved Amanda's piece and I love her portrayal of Mary.
John clearly loved her, Sherlock clearly liked her and she worked for me.


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January 20, 2017 5:53 pm  #4762


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I still wonder what her purpose was for story-telling. Did they only bring her up because she is canon? Has Rosie been the endgame?


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

January 20, 2017 5:55 pm  #4763


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I think they had to do her, because she was canon.
But if they had to do her, I think they just wanted to make her a bit more exciting, to have another strong female character.


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January 20, 2017 5:58 pm  #4764


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I am fine with Mary Morstan being in the show. I am not fine with her being in more episodes than Sherlock and John alone and overshadowing both of them. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 20, 2017 6:01 pm  #4765


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Well, that's possibly by default...if the show has ended sooner than expected.
But she was important to Sherlock and John and her story was a big one.
This was a decision made by Mark and Steven and I am happy with it.


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January 20, 2017 6:05 pm  #4766


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Well, I am not. And I am not the only one. It is their greatest deviation from Canon. I really wonder if they thought, well, there was not enough wife and child for John Watson. So let's give him this terrific super-agent/assassin wife who first kills his best friend, is forgiven, and ends up by appearing as a ghost for a whole episode before giving them their blessing to bring up her daughter. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 20, 2017 6:05 pm  #4767


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I think, Mary is always a problem in film versions. She is a problem in the books, too. She is introduced in "Sigh of Four" in a really interesting way, and we hear very soon that John will marry her. But after that, she is barely mentioned in the stories, and sometime there are a few words about her dead. How can anyone film that? One can only do two things: the first is to omit the part (not really a good idea, for many reasons). The other is to re-invent the character. That is what Moftiss did. And what they did worked very well for the series, at last, although I did not like the idea at first.

 

January 20, 2017 6:07 pm  #4768


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I was with her from the beginning...or at least as soon as she stuck up for Sherlock in the cafe: ooh, well he would have needed a confidante.


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January 20, 2017 6:13 pm  #4769


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

athameg wrote:

I think, Mary is always a problem in film versions. She is a problem in the books, too. She is introduced in "Sigh of Four" in a really interesting way, and we hear very soon that John will marry her. But after that, she is barely mentioned in the stories, and sometime there are a few words about her dead. How can anyone film that? One can only do two things: the first is to omit the part (not really a good idea, for many reasons). The other is to re-invent the character. That is what Moftiss did. And what they did worked very well for the series, at last, although I did not like the idea at first.

Well, I have seen many reviews and viewers' opinions stating the exact opposite. That in the end it was the focus on Mary that destroyed the core of the show. My son fed up with her as early as S3. Said her character did not make sense. Extending her part over seven episodes was a mistake in my opinion.

If you look at the Ritchie films - which are far from perfect - you can see how you can create a Mary that is more than a simple plot device without sacrificing the chemistry between the main characters. And in my opinion this is where Moftiss failed. Sadly because on the whole their show is so much better than the films. 
 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 20, 2017 6:14 pm  #4770


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

besleybean wrote:

I was with her from the beginning...or at least as soon as she stuck up for Sherlock in the cafe: ooh, well he would have needed a confidante.

I think it sad thst the two men who are supposed to share the greatest friendship in history needed a confidante.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

January 20, 2017 6:15 pm  #4771


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

This. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 20, 2017 6:15 pm  #4772


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I still am, and will always be disappointed that they did not make Mary a true villain in the end.  It would've been much more interesting and unconventional in my opinion.  Not to mention that watching the scenes of AGRA in action I know AA could've made a magnificent Moran (or Moran like character.)  I think the creatures really missed an opportunity here.

Last edited by tonnaree (January 20, 2017 6:17 pm)


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Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

January 20, 2017 6:17 pm  #4773


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Well really, this is ancient history.
But ok...
I don't know whose decision it was not to tell John and I don't know whether Sherlock regretted the decision.  But he's apologised enough and repaid John tenfold.
I should also point out that in the grand scheme of things:  I am certain that if Jon could have Mary back, he'd be only too delighted to accept what Sherlock did.


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January 20, 2017 6:44 pm  #4774


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

SusiGo wrote:

I am fine with Mary Morstan being in the show. I am not fine with her being in more episodes than Sherlock and John alone and overshadowing both of them. 

 
How could she have overshadowed them?? She wasn' even a main character. Aside from her 3-minutes-appearence in TFP she wasn't part of that episode. She had only a minor part in TEH and TAB, even TSoT was much more about Sherlock and John then about Mary.

SusiGo wrote:

Well, I am not. And I am not the only one. 

Well, I liked her. And I am not the only one either. Very interessting argumentation.
Has there ever been a poll about how many viewers liked or disliked Mary (and I don't mean this forum but all viewers)? You seem to think that the majority does not like her but that's simply an assumption. I saw plenty comments on Twitter or other sides where people were sad about her death.

besleybean wrote:

Well really, this is ancient history.

 
Amen.


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"There is a place for people like you, the desperate, the terrified. The ones with nowhere else to run."
"What place?"
"221B Baker Street."
 

January 20, 2017 7:52 pm  #4775


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

The Sherlock fandom can go years without new material.  If we didn't discuss ancient history we'd run out of things to talk about real fast.  


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

January 20, 2017 7:55 pm  #4776


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

No I meant that personally I am most interested in the up to date story as we have been left it, more so than harking back to past series and episodes...only in how they built up to where we are now.

Last edited by besleybean (January 20, 2017 7:55 pm)


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January 20, 2017 7:56 pm  #4777


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I actually really liked what they did with Mary in S4.  To my surprise, because I was not a huge fan of her before.   Ghost Mary in TLD was particularly moving. 

I don't think Moftiss had to include Mary - it was their choice which stories to cover, and TSOT actually bears very little resemblence to TSOF apart from a few references.  I think it was a conscious choice to do her character, rather than them feeling they had a problem with what to do with her.  TSOF could actually have been done without Mary Morstan for the most part.  They could have made John had a background wife if they wanted, or no wife at all.

 

January 20, 2017 7:57 pm  #4778


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Yes, so it was a big thing for them to choose her and they made the most of her.


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January 20, 2017 8:04 pm  #4779


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

They had fun with her, I think!  And I liked it - it felt like a well-rounded story in the end.  Ticked all the boxes as I think I said after TST - redemption, apology, self-sacrifice ... even trying to unite Sherlock and John after death, at least the way John saw it. 

 

January 20, 2017 11:43 pm  #4780


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

tonnaree wrote:

I still am, and will always be disappointed that they did not make Mary a true villain in the end.  It would've been much more interesting and unconventional in my opinion.  Not to mention that watching the scenes of AGRA in action I know AA could've made a magnificent Moran (or Moran like character.)  I think the creatures really missed an opportunity here.

It wouldn't have been canon if they had.  Just as it was canon that Mary should die, it was also canon that she not be a true villain.  Anyway, I'm glad they didn't!
 

 

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