BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » The Final Problem: First impressions

NoShipSherlock · January 16, 2017 11:30 pm

First, I like the notions and ideas posted by both besleybean and Rache. Well said, both of you.

Haven't rewatched the episode, but was also kept up late thinking about it! As I posted last night, I don't think it will ever be my favorite, and it was not what I was expecting to see, but I do think it had many effective scenes and, I like the concept that it could serve as both an end and a beginning should they choose to go on. I can now see the theme arc over the entire series so far of how Sherlock came to be the way he is and of how he grew and changed as a person. But darn it, I miss them solving cases and that still disappointed me a bit.

I am not sure it tied things up neatly for me. I still have many unanswered questions to be honest. And I am still having a hard time believing many of the events such as surviving the explosion, stealing the boat, and just how did Euros escape and orchestrate all of those games anyway?
I have made peace with it and hope it fulfilled what the writers set out to do. Hoping to watch ALL of the episodes back to back in order sometime to get the full scope, but that might take a while. Though, in this fandom, we have all the time in the world to catch up between seasons, right?

I was really hoping to see some things that didn't occur, but I didn't write the show, so will just have to be satisfied with what transpired. Not sure what thread in which this really belongs, so I will just put my wishlist here.
1. Almost wanted Molly to turn out to be the mastermind villain. She did date Moriarty after all, and would have been a cool twist if she'd managed to lay low all this time and get close to Sherlock only to have some devious role in the end.
2. Would have been fun to have Moriarty have a twin brother or to have somehow still been alive. He was an awesome villain!
3. Would have been an interesting modern twist to keep Mary alive and have the whole family solve crimes with Sherlock. I know many people didn't like Mary and that it isn't canon that she would survive, but they changed many other things and, if this was to be a modern version, I would hope Sherlock would accept and respect working with a woman. He did seem to truly care for her and respect her opinion on the cases they did show them working in Thatchers. Would've made more sense to me to keep a family unit where Mary and John took turns watching Rosie while the other solved cases. Crazy wishful thinking, I know, and it would have certainly changed the dynamic, but for me it would have been an interesting way to update the show. Please don't hurl insults at me for this idea!
4. Would have liked to have seen Euros use more of her powers of deception and disguise. She was quite chilling, but I think I would've liked seeing her more in the real world and not just locked up in Sherrinford.
5. Sorry, I know this isn't popular either, but I would have liked to have seen Sherlock with Irene Adler. I suppose it was hinted at, but I would've liked one final scene with them together. Since I'm not a Johnlock fan nor a Sherlolly, I think if he were to have a partner, she is his perfect match. The Woman.
7. Would have liked to have seen what was in John's note to Sherlock and better closure for Molly.
Well, I think those are plenty of what ifs!
Please don't misunderstand thinking I am trashing the show. I still love it and there is still much to enjoy and analyze. Those thoughts are just my version of what I would have liked in the end. As I said, I think I am okay with how it played out, and we can always hope we will get to see the guys solve another case or two someday!

SusiGo · January 16, 2017 11:37 pm

tonnaree wrote:
Liberty wrote:
Mod note: My feeling is that this thread is for first impressions of TFP, which includes both negative and positive first impressions. Everybody can post their first impression, positive or negative, and shouldn't need to defend it.

I'm aware that there is unpleasantness on other sites, so I think we need to make an effort to not let it seep over here, and to keep this as our safe place. It's difficult to come here full of enthusiasm for what might be the last episode, to find people tearing it to pieces. And it's also difficult to have anticipated this episode for years and feel that you should love it, only to be disappointed and feel let down. It's a divisive episode, and it's easy for both sides to feel hurt because our views don't coincide. We have to come to terms with that.

I see that a couple of people have started threads for negative opinions about TFP, and those might be good places to vent for those who were disappointed, after our initial discussion here.

Thank you all for being polite and respectful to each other.

Well said Liberty. Thank you for stepping up with that. As a mod and a member I too insist that all opinions are valid. As long as we are polite and kind to each other, as we always have been, that's the important thing. Right now I have decided to avoid most other discussion sites. This is my fandom home and I am proud to be a part of it.

Thank you, Liberty, for your well-chosen words. I fully agree with you.

Kae Em · January 17, 2017 12:11 am

I watched the episode a second time now but I'm still not capable of writing a coherent review. All I can say is that I loved the episode although the vivisection of my favourite characters was sometimes hard to watch and highly emotional. It went in a totally different direction than anything before, but I don't mind that. Sherlock to me has always been much more about the characters and not about the puzzles. I loved the character focused turn in series 3 and loved its continuation and culmination in series 4. I think if there's ever going to be a series 5, they can go back to solving puzzles again, but it's still going to be different from series 1 and 2, because now everyone - even Sherlock himself - has actually realized that he's far from an emotionless sociapath. So if there isn't ever going to be a series 5, I'm ok with that, because TFP felt like the end of a journey. It would be great to see the beginning of a new journey, but I'm ok if we don't.

I didn't think there were many plotholes in TFP. Yes, a lot of it was not explained and some of it was a bit over the top, but I think it's interesting that we have to think for ourselves what might have happenend. I'm just going to mention a few of the issues other people seem to have with the episode (which is ok, not everybody has to like/dislike the same things) that didn't bother me at all:

Ok, the explosion was over the top, but they only jumped from the first floor, they could have made that jump withouth any severe injuries. Scratches, yes, one or two broken bones, yes. But these can heal easily within a few weeks/months. And we don't know how much later the scene on the boat took place, could have been weeks after the jump.

They hijacked the boat by helicopter, the fisherman even heard the helicopter outside. I'm sure it wasn't difficult for Mycroft to get a helicopter to fly and drop them there.

And in the end, we don't see John climb up the rope without taking his chains off. He just grabs the rope and clings to it, as anyone would do in this situation (he was in the water up to his head and not really able to swim with these chains on). Let's just imagine that Sherlock was able to either provide him with a key to the chains afterwards or was able to tell him a trick how to get rid of them otherwiese. Just because we didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Last edited by Kae Em (January 17, 2017 12:19 am)

Kae Em · January 17, 2017 12:14 am

NoShipSherlock wrote:
2. Would have been fun to have Moriarty have a twin brother.

Just remember, it's never twins!! Sorry, I couldn't resist the temptation

By the way: I really loved the John/Mary/Sherlock dynamic as well, espacially Mary's relationship/friendship with Sherlock. I was sad to see her go, but her death gave us the great TLD, which was an almost perfect episode in my opinion, so I won't complain.

Last edited by Kae Em (January 17, 2017 12:17 am)

NoShipSherlock · January 17, 2017 12:39 am

Kae Em wrote:
NoShipSherlock wrote:
2. Would have been fun to have Moriarty have a twin brother.
Just remember, it's never twins!! Sorry, I couldn't resist the temptation

By the way: I really loved the John/Mary/Sherlock dynamic as well, espacially Mary's relationship/friendship with Sherlock. I was sad to see her go, but her death gave us the great TLD, which was an almost perfect episode in my opinion, so I won't complain.

Re: the twins--because it's never twins, would have been funny if it turned out to be twins! Sherlock wasn't always right!

Glad to hear someone else liked the trio dynamic. But you're right. TLD wouldn't exist if Mary hadn't died, and that episode was amazing! One of the best for sure!

Preceja · January 17, 2017 1:22 am

I rewatched the beginning (up to the explosion) and end (from Sherlock in the false room in Musgrave) and I must say I like these parts. I found quite a lot of things that pleased me and that I did not noticed first time as I was either thinking if it is not a Mycroft's dream or was in shock from the events in the fort. I found also some logic in it. Sherlock finally played with Eurus which was what she wanted, first the game and then the only thing they were able to play together in the fort - violin. And not only played, Eurus was teaching him how to play better.

I do not know if I dare to watch the rest and also still have no idea why she wanted to kill them all. The explanation that she is insane so who knows why is she doing what is she doing is too cheap, I still hope there is something other,I am still looking for old Sherlock somwhere hidden, maybe in vain.

Last edited by Preceja (January 17, 2017 1:24 am)

Preceja · January 17, 2017 1:36 am

NicoleCollard wrote:
Regarding to Moriarty, it was nice to see him again. After watching this, I thought maybe Mofftiss were trying to make us see that Moriarty was actually an idea, the idea of evil, of criminality, as if Moriarty was some sort of organization. I might have read too much into it, but I was convinced. The fact of Moriarty being Eurus' "puppet" disturbed me a little.

I do not think Moriarty was only puppet of Eurus. He had wide net of criminals and criminal activites, it needs time to build and put into life. He met Eurus shortly before his death, he was her Christmas present after she found out he was intersted in Sherlock. So she just added her ideas and brain to his. It took Sherlock two years to destroy his net.

Preceja · January 17, 2017 1:53 am

And to the ones who want John move to Baker street and raise Rosie there with Sherlock - do you have children? Can you imagine a child there (not for a visit, but living there while adults need to do something else then just watch over her?) Flat full of chemicals, poison, sharp things, guns, mess. There are no lockers, not enough shelves to put everything one and half meters high. Clients are comming all the time with dirty shoes. Sherlock would have to let John his bedroom , you cannot have little child on different floor, and run up and down when she should be sleeping during the day and crying, you also need kitchen close. And it is hard to solve anything with a child on your lap....

kgreen20 · January 17, 2017 3:31 am

Which is why Rosie will have to go, if John is ever to move back to Baker Street as he did in canon. (And that's assuming there ever is a Season 5!)

Last edited by kgreen20 (January 17, 2017 4:22 am)

oldechick · January 17, 2017 3:42 am

Wow, it took me all day at work to read the posts here! I'd sneak a pageful when I had the chance & drove myself crazy not being able to write in.
While I can understand to some degree why people didn't like this season/last episode/what have you, I thought "TFP" was incredible. Sure, if you use too much critical thinking you can see a couple of cannonball-sized plot holes. But why ruin such good fun? I just feel there is a particular segment of fans who would settle for nothing less than Sherlock & John shagging in front of the Baker Street fireplace & walking hand-in-hand to Harrod's to register for wedding gifts! While that makes for some darn entertaining fanfic, it's not good drama or the vision the writers had. I don't clutch my couch pillow & rock back & forth pleading "please don't let (fill in the blank) die" like a mantra with any other show. For whatever reason, "Sherlock" touches on something deep in fans. And it's especially wonderful it works on so many wildly different levels!
But ultimately, it is a TV show. It is cracking good entertainment & one of the few shows that treats the viewers as adults & capable of taking the journey the creators envisioned. If nothing else, it should be given credit for that.

tonnaree · January 17, 2017 4:08 am

Second First Impressions.

Just got home from the theater screening and had such a good time. Really enjoyable to watch with a crowd and everyone was enthusiastic. One of the best things about the second viewing was the fact that I could relax! Watching an episode of Sherlock for the first time is a damn nerve wrecking experience for me. I'm wound so tight waiting for disaster or for someone to die! I love it but it gives me a headache! Watching it again and knowing that everything is going to be all right in the end is a chance to really absorb the details and catch things I might've missed the first time.

*Andrew was fantastic and I'm very glad they were able to use him. However, I am also very glad that Moriarty is really dead.

*I have no problem admitting that there were some pretty large plot holes in S4, but nothing I can't live with.

* I can also admit that the explosion effects were cheesy, but considering the emotional payoff of watching John and Sherlock put 221b back together I can totally forgive it.

*In figuring out how to deal with the grenade John and Sherlock were mainly concerned at how best to save Mrs. Hudson.

*Opinions may vary on this but I was grateful that John was not able to just shoot that man in cold blood. Yes, this is part of what caused the wife to get killed. However, this was early in the game and I think John was still holding out some hope that they could find another way.

*Immediately knew that Mycroft was trying to goad Sherlock into shooting him instead of John and it broke my heart in a million places. Mycroft knew that Sherlock would not survive losing John.

*Seeing John figure something out before Mycroft. He was first to realize that it was the governor talking to Eurus on the tape.

* "Soldiers"

*Sherlock and John really being a team again. Trusting each other. Leaning on each other. Working together to figure things out.

*Seeing Mycroft become a fully fleshed out characters with so many layers. Mycroft whipping out a sword, ready to do battle. Mycroft afraid. Mycroft weak. Mycroft who shouldered everything for the love of his family. Mycroft human.

*Sherlock Holmes the Pirate.

*Hated what Eurus made Sherlock do to Molly, but Loo acted the hell out of that scene. Followed of course by Sherlock's rage at being made to hurt his friend.

*Was not all that happy that we got one last speech from Mary. But those words they had her speak were perfection. In a perfect world I would've had Hudders make that speech.

*Hearing John say "Vatican Cameos."

*Sherlock's tears when he learns that Redbeard was his friend Victor. (Give Ben the BAFTA now)

*I know that I'll have much more to discuss later, but In the end it was John and Sherlock together, in 221b with their "family" all around them. All is as it should be.

Schmiezi · January 17, 2017 4:18 am

Hi, I'm a bit late to the party... Let me give you my first impression before reading yours in no particular order:

I love the episode! It was dark and angsty and I did not breath for at least an hour.

The umbrella that turned out to be a sword that turned out to be a gun!

I love Mycroft for trying to make Sherlock’s decision easier.

Redbeard. Oh God how heartbreaking! I will need time to get over it.

Poor Molly!

The girl in the airplane scenario. I did not see that coming.

The Garrideb moment not being what so many have expected.

Using the Musgrave Ritual in such a cruel way.

They all acted so impressively.

Moriarty really being dead!

Parentlock at a rebuilt 221b.

Watching the episode was devastating but I am extremely happy with it. Does that make sense?

WhoIWantToBe · January 17, 2017 4:18 am

oldechick wrote:
Wow, it took me all day at work to read the posts here! I'd sneak a pageful when I had the chance & drove myself crazy not being able to write in.
... But why ruin such good fun? I just feel there is a particular segment of fans who would settle for nothing less than Sherlock & John shagging in front of the Baker Street fireplace & walking hand-in-hand to Harrod's to register for wedding gifts! While that makes for some darn entertaining fanfic, it's not good drama or the vision the writers had.

I'm not following, where was this stated by anyone in this thread? That's a bit.... excessive. ಠ_ಠ

Last edited by WhoIWantToBe (January 17, 2017 4:20 am)

tonnaree · January 17, 2017 4:31 am

kgreen20 wrote:
Which is why Rosie will have to go, if John is ever to move back to Baker Street as he did in canon. (And that's assuming there ever is a Season 5!)

From what we are shown at the end of the episode it is entirely possible that John and Rosie HAVE moved into Baker Street. There is nothing to rule it out. The scene in John and Mary's old place was earlier and before they started restoring 221b.

I'm just saying that it is possible.

Schmiezi · January 17, 2017 5:13 am

tonnaree wrote:
kgreen20 wrote:
Which is why Rosie will have to go, if John is ever to move back to Baker Street as he did in canon. (And that's assuming there ever is a Season 5!)

From what we are shown at the end of the episode it is entirely possible that John and Rosie HAVE moved into Baker Street. There is nothing to rule it out. The scene in John and Mary's old place was earlier and before they started restoring 221b.

I'm just saying that it is possible.

I am with you on that one. It us left open I think so everybody can decide for themselves if they live together again or not.

I think they do!

besleybean · January 17, 2017 6:51 am

So John has just kept his house for show?
I don't see 221B being asuitable place for a child, so no, I don't think John has moved in.

Last edited by besleybean (January 17, 2017 6:52 am)

ewige · January 17, 2017 7:18 am

besleybean wrote:
So John has just kept his house for show?
I don't see 221B being asuitable place for a child, so no, I don't think John has moved in.

We don't see him in his house in the end but both John and Rosie are in 221b in the end.
About it not being suitable - people make do! My place hadn't been good for children from the very first day but we got there eventually.
Besides, they have a live-in babysitter. That's more than most working parents can say.

Kae Em · January 17, 2017 7:19 am

besleybean wrote:
So John has just kept his house for show?
I don't see 221B being asuitable place for a child, so no, I don't think John has moved in.

We don't know he kept his house. As far as I remember we only see his house in the beginning of the final montage when they are watching Mary's DVD for the first time. That must have been shortly after the events of TFP and probably before they even started rebuilding the appartment in 221b Baker street. So it's entirely possible John moved in again after 221b was rebuilt, giving up his other house. Of Course we don't know for sure, but it's possible. I like this open ending, so everyone can just interpret it the way they want it to be.

I'm not sure if 221b couldn't be a suitable place for a child. Probably Mrs. Hudson has a room or two to spare and even enjoys helping to take care of a child. Who knows. I'm not saying it has to be this way, I just say it could work if they wanted it to work.

Kae Em · January 17, 2017 7:20 am

ewige wrote:
besleybean wrote:
So John has just kept his house for show?
I don't see 221B being asuitable place for a child, so no, I don't think John has moved in.

We don't see him in his house in the end but both John and Rosie are in 221b in the end.
About it not being suitable - people make do! My place hadn't been good for children from the very first day but we got there eventually.
Besides, they have a live-in babysitter. That's more than most working parents can say.

Haha, looks like we kind of had the same thoughts at the same time

besleybean · January 17, 2017 7:23 am

I've replied to this on another thread and this forum doesn't allow me to copy and paste, so I'll type it all again!
John and Rosie were visiting 221 B.
Greg turns up wanting help on a case.
Molly is called in to babysit.