BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » John's violence

Schmiezi · January 13, 2017 6:58 am

besleybean wrote:
Gosh, and here was me awaiting the usual telling off!

Sorry to disappoint you. ;-)

besleybean · January 13, 2017 7:01 am

Ha ha.

Schmiezi · January 13, 2017 7:14 am

I find it difficult to post something here because I got it that some members have been through terrible stuff that influences their reception of such an episode.

I don't want to hurt feelings by saying, it's just male-written TV. On the other hand, I think that it is made clear that John is heavily flawed and still Sherlock cares deeply about him. Accepting the flaws that are barely acceptable is what makes the character developement for John this series.

Of course, in real life my reaction would be completely different. Yet this is TV. I had to swallow that they forgave Mary shooting him, I also have to swallow that Sherlock forgive John the attack. And seeing John's regret afterwards it is a lot easier for me than the Mary thing.

RavenMorganLeigh · January 13, 2017 7:16 am

Nah-- no telling off. I have a different viewpoint than the majority, and that's fine. It doesn't mean that I like anyone any less. We'll have to agree to disagree. I wanted to make my point, and I made it-- and, it is what it is. John beating Sherlock is pretty much a non-issue-- even acceptable-- for the people in this forum, and I accept that, though I think differently. I'll drop it, now.

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (January 13, 2017 7:17 am)

besleybean · January 13, 2017 7:20 am

Not at all.
I am sorry if I haven't been clear.
It is totally unacceptable, certainly in real life.
I have hinted they may be just think it makes good TV and maybe the boys what this kind of 'excitement'? I dunno.
But this is the John they have chosen to show us.
I guess we have to either accept this or not.
Oh and I wasn't meaning you per se on the telling off thing. I've had a couple of bad experiences on here, but I deal with it!

Last edited by besleybean (January 13, 2017 7:21 am)

Liberty · January 13, 2017 8:14 am

Yes, that's my issue with it, Besleybean - and I worried about this when the violence was discussed before - that of course it's not OK in real life, and no amount of mental violence v phsycial violence, John was upset, they needed the catharsis, etc. makes it so. In real life.

In the show (which is kind of fantasy), it fits with what they've shown us so far, and is the kind of thing I'd expect them to do. If it's easier, I suppose we could see it as almost metaphorical. They have chosen to use this outward expression of extreme emotion, because an inward one would not make such good TV! Also, they do love to show Sherlock suffering (how much does he suffer throughout the series?) and as a martyr. And he suffers absolutely beautifully - I can see that, even while the violence is a bit disturbing!

So yes, completely agree, in the show - not my favourite aspect of it - but I think I can see why they do it, and that it's not meant to mean what it would mean in real life.

Vhanja · January 13, 2017 10:05 am

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
John beating Sherlock is pretty much a non-issue-- even acceptable-- for the people in this forum, and I accept that, though I think differently. I'll drop it, now.

I have not seen one single person in here saying John beating Sherlock is not an issue and that it's acceptable. You keep writing that we in here don't mind that John beat up Sherlock, and to be quite frank, I find that offensive. Especially if you actually read through the tread and see that Every.Single.One commenting has written that they do NOT find it acceptable, and that it was a horrible thing to do.

nakahara · January 13, 2017 10:23 am

Liberty wrote:
Also, they do love to show Sherlock suffering (how much does he suffer throughout the series?) and as a martyr. And he suffers absolutely beautifully - I can see that, even while the violence is a bit disturbing!

LOL!
Sherlock, the first snuff show being successfully publicly broadcasted around the world. Truly groundbreaking.

Jokes aside, I think the scene could be much more effective and maybe even acceptable if it came out of the blue, as a very rare and isolated incident. Then it would be believable that John just snapped under duress.
That scenario is much harder to accept when the scene comes at the end of the chain of similar scenes in which Sherlock was already headbutted, strangled, kicked, shot and threatened with further violence.... the authors could really stop that now. Esteticising violence too much is not for this kind of a show, IMHO.

But I digress.

Rache · January 13, 2017 4:31 pm

NoShipSherlock wrote:
      What I see is two people who see each other at their absolute worst and choose to forgive each other. They mutually chose to forgive and forget. They needed to go through this hell to see what is really important to both of them and that is each other and their friendship.
     Love is not always pretty. To truly love someone, you need to accept both the very best and the very worst in that person and love that person anyway for all their characteristics. I think John and Sherlock each chose to do that evidenced by their hug at the end. I do not think their relationship will ever reach this low a point again. I think John is truly repentant, even though he is not actually shown apologizing to Sherlock.  And I think Sherlock is sorry as well, but I cannot remember him apologizing for ruining himself with drugs either. I think the apology is understood and unsaid between both of them.  I think that both of them will now support and champion each other as true friends from here out.
     John's actions are hard to watch and should not be excused, but, like Preceja, I get it. I understand how and why it could happen this way. I wish it hadn't, but as was also referenced in the episode, "It is what it is." It happened and they found a way to still love each other and deepen their friendship as a result of an awful, awful act.
     I think we should ultimately focus on the end result of the assault, not the assault itself. Again, for me, I feel like they went through the worst thing they could possibly go through and came through stronger and with a deeper love for one another and a deeper friendship than before. That is what I ultimately took from this episode.

      I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone who has been exposed to any kind of real emotional or physical abuse. No one should ever have to endure that and I am sure this scene was even more terrible if you have gone through something like that. That is never okay.
My comments are discussing only the specific situation portrayed by these characters.

Very well said!
I agree with you.

This incident has been extreme. But also I think we shouldn't forget that both Sherlock and John's relationship has been through EXTREMES, they have been through extreme situations before, they are extreme characters. Somehow and somewhere what happened in this specific situation fits with them. This is another extreme situation in their extreme lifes.
Just think about that they both killed a human being for each other! This alone is a rarity in real life (in civilized countries for sure). Who can say about himself that this has happened to him?
And there has been SO much more going on for them. (And for sure stuff we don't know about, even before they met each other!)

Last edited by Rache (January 13, 2017 4:32 pm)

Liberty · January 13, 2017 6:22 pm

Nakahara, it's not snuff, if it's acting . But I do think the team like the aesthetics, and the emotional punch of showing this sort of stuff, and I've learned to accept that. And possibly a lot of the audience like it too. (I remember being surprised to hear that actually a lot of the fans really wanted John to punch Sherlock in TEH before it was aired!).

Vhanja, of course nobody is saying that kind of violence is OK. But I think the difficulty comes (for me, personally, reading it) is that when there's arguments such as saying that Sherlock also "uses" mental violence, there's the suggestion that it's OK, or at least less bad, in certain circumstances (such as when used against somebody who uses mental violence), or else why make that argument about Sherlock? Maybe it's because it's so easy for us to get caught up in different arguments - it almost seems as if a whole lot of different debates (why John did it, whether it was justified, whether it fits with his character, whether it's different if it was real life, etc.) are getting melded together and leave us at cross purposes!

kgreen20 · January 13, 2017 6:25 pm

Don't forget that up to this point, John has only beaten up Sherlock twice in the entire series (TEH and TLD), and that on both occasions, he was extremely provoked and/or stressed out. He has not made it a regular practice to beat up Sherlock. On every other occasion that he was angry with his flatmate, he expressed his anger verbally; once, he expressed it by leaving the flat and spending the night elsewhere.

Therefore, the "abuse" accusation really doesn't fit here. Abusers make it a regular practice to beat up their victims, and John does not.

Last edited by kgreen20 (January 13, 2017 6:27 pm)

Vhanja · January 13, 2017 6:48 pm

Liberty wrote:
Vhanja, of course nobody is saying that kind of violence is OK. But I think the difficulty comes (for me, personally, reading it) is that when there's arguments such as saying that Sherlock also "uses" mental violence, there's the suggestion that it's OK, or at least less bad, in certain circumstances (such as when used against somebody who uses mental violence), or else why make that argument about Sherlock? Maybe it's because it's so easy for us to get caught up in different arguments - it almost seems as if a whole lot of different debates (why John did it, whether it was justified, whether it fits with his character, whether it's different if it was real life, etc.) are getting melded together and leave us at cross purposes!

No, as I've said before - I don't think neither physical violence or mental/emotional maniuplation is ok. I just don't like the double standard I see when anything Sherlock does to John (and others) is handwaved away as ok "because it's for a case" etc, while as everything and anything John does to Sherlock is judged very harshly.

besleybean · January 13, 2017 6:54 pm

I can only agree.
For me it was the bad rap Mary got.
But apparently Sherlock could do what he liked and John too.

Liberty · January 13, 2017 7:28 pm

So that's getting into a different argument altogether - about which characters people forgive more, maybe. Which would actually be quite an interesting subject for a different thread. I find Sherlock very easy to forgive because he's just so loveable and self-sacrificing. (Although I would find it very difficult if he did anything like what John does to him in TLD!). I kind of irrationally forgive Irene for sending information to Moriarty and wrecking an international plan to save lives, because she's afraid and trying to protect herself, and because she has such a schoolgirl crush on Sherlock, despite herself! I would forgive Mary anything now that she's given her life for Sherlock!

Last edited by Liberty (January 13, 2017 7:28 pm)

Preceja · January 13, 2017 7:29 pm

besleybean wrote:
We appear to have strayed into the area of ifs and buts and maybes...
What happened was John gave Sherlock a beating and Sherlock took it...
They have both kind of explained why.
I suppose we have to try and accept it and move on, thy seem to have done so.
Yes, this is exactly what I said when Mary shot Sherlock.
To me, it seems the same sort of situation.
We seem to angst more than the characters do.
I guess that's TV for you.

Come on! We are just passing time till Sunday.

besleybean · January 13, 2017 7:30 pm

I know.
I also don't want to underplay the issues around violence and its portrayal.
I was one of the first to object to Sherlock beating up the CIA guy and then shooting CAM.

Vhanja · January 13, 2017 7:34 pm

Whereas I work more like a pair of scale or a pendulum - as long as the debate is nuanced and honestly interested in understanding a character's intentions, I have no trouble joining and criticising the character's behaviour a long with everyboyd else (as I did for most of this thread).

But the moment someone slides all the way to one end, where things are black and white and there seem to be no interest in understanding or having a nuanced debate I swing to the other side in defence.

besleybean · January 13, 2017 7:37 pm

Excellent.
I like that and try to do the same.
I actually think Mary was crucified on here, when Sherlock got off Scot free.

Vhanja · January 13, 2017 7:40 pm

besleybean wrote:
I actually think Mary was crucified on here, when Sherlock got off Scot free.

That's my impression too. Mary, and partly John, are being held accountable and responsible for every word they say, every expression on their face and everything they do.

The reason I've never defended Sherlock is simply because I never need to - he gets off Scots free for anything.

Preceja · January 13, 2017 7:40 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
Preceja wrote:
RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
So, basically-- if Sherlock, feeling put upon, finally beats and kicks John-- till he's bleeding and spitting blood (same as John beating Sherlock) , that would be fine? Just two guys roughhousing? Just trying to be clear.

If they are acting under some mutual agreement yes, given that not both of them are unable to control. Here Sherlock would better immobilize John (he is big enough and strong enough to do it) and wait till he calms down or he would call help. If only he wanted.
It is stupid but it happens and participants are able to deal with it and get out of it without any permanent harm to their bodies mind or friendship. .
Errr-- if it's okay for John to beat Sherlock until he's spitting blood, then it ought to be just fine for Sherlock to do the same. While not resisting, as Sherlock did. John-- shouldn't try to defend himself, just like Sherlock allowed John to punch, and kick Sherlock-- even when he was on the ground. And if John's ill, or sick or something-- that doesn't matter. What's good for the goose...

Not in this situation or at least people would not act that way in this situation. And does not matter who is who, generally speaking if you beat up a friend who is beating you up out of control for something he believes you did to him and you belive the same, you feel even worse. You have nothing to revenge for so you are trying not to. If he is strong enough and you have no other choise how to stop him, it is something different.

But if you mean that measures are different for John and Sherlock ,no. If Sherlock stopped murder attempt ad beet up high John who , he feels, caused death of somebody very close to him, I feel it the same. It is just psychology.