No, it is not. It is according to the situation. The worst thing was the loss of Mary, the biggest grief, emotions. Before it  is kick to the chear, not worse than punch in the nose. 

Have you read this thread? Everybody here has problem with it , biger or smaller, for somebody it is much but still acceptable in critical situation, for somebody not. 

But as the worst in John's life happened recently does not mean that his violence is escalating, just that it is in him.

I'm coming late to this discussion, but just wanted to say that I hated what John did to Sherlock. h-a-t-e-d it. Especially the kicking. I can't imagine in god's name what Gatiss was thinking of to include such a thing in "our" show. The Sherlock-John friendship is the biggest draw for me to make me watch, and now he's killing it. Hate it. Hate all of that. Not sure if I'll be watching anymore after next Sunday, if this 3rd ep is as bad as the last 2. Ugh.

Before this season, I used to say that some of the things Sherlock had done was so shocking and horrible that I could neither justify nor defend them. And I liked that - because I don't need to be able to justify or defend everything a character do, they don't have to go by my moral standard. 

Now it's John's turn to do something so shocking and horrible that I can neither justify nor defend it. And I still like it.

I don't like the actions, but I like that Moftiss dare to go there, dare to give us properly flawed characters. Not just "teehee, he was rude to Anderson" or "teehee, he's a bit grumpy", but people who actually cross the line. Square-jawed heroes with few to zero flaws bore me to death. This is intriguing, and I don't have to like everything they do for me to be interested.

Last edited by Vhanja (January 11, 2017 7:54 am)

Preceja wrote:

For me the scene in the underground, Sherlock's lying about the bomb is much worse than beating up Sherlock. 
What did John do, it was in stress, full of emotions, unprepared. I do not believe that he really wanted to injure badly but might have. 
Sherlock with the bomb was cold calculation, to force John forgive him in the minute of death. It could have been dangerous, too, heart attack or something. It was not for greater good, just selfish wish, great manipulation,mental violence.

Well, when I compare both scenes, I still can´t see how Sherlock´s behaviour was worse than John´s.

First the motivations: Sherlock "selfishly" wanted reconciliation.
I simply can´t see how reconciling with Sherlock hurt John. John seemed none the worse for wear after reconciling. Actually, I think, it´s what he secretly wished for too. I don´t think holding a grudge for much longer would benefit him.
On the other hand, John needed to beat Sherlock in the morgue to reach "catharsis".
In my opinion, catharsis like this would only benefit John and so, according to same logic we applied to Sherlock earlier, this was a "selfish" act too.
After John´s "catharsis", Sherlock ended as the bloody heap on the floor and needed a medical help right away. That all after being in a weakened state already.
In short, "selfishly forcing somebody to forgive" is not as severe in my book as "beating somebody to a pulp so that you can feel better about your miserable life".

That leads me to...

Physical and mental repercussions of both action:
While being subjected to that horrible "mental violence", John was healthy and in the clear state of mind. The "mental violence" lead to exactly 1:30 minute of acute mental anguish, replaced by healthy laughter and amusement.
No hospital was needed, no physical harm came to John, the mental anguish was all but forgotten.
The bomb was disfunctional (thanks to Sherlock´s action), so no actual threat of death was there for John.
Also, Sherlock was not the one who installed the bomb there, so he was not the main factor in endangering John´s life with it earlier.
While being subjected to vicious beating from John´s side, Sherlock was already weakened and his mental state during the scene was nearing hysteria.
Above, you forgave John´s behaviour, because he was acting "in a stress, full of emotions". Sherlock´s mental state during the morgue scene was much, much worse... doesn´t that count too?
After being massacred by John, Sherlock was bleeding, unable to stand, had a split above his eye, hematoma in the eye itself, maybe some cracked ribs... and then "the emotional John" cold-blodedly accused him of killing his wife, that all despite the fact that he knew the real perpetrator, Vivian Norbury and didn´t care about her at all.
That cruel remark prolonged the mental anguish Sherlock was already in to hours, which, combined with his sorry physical state, lead to an acute suffering and pain.
The wounds inflicted by John were real and lead to the danger that Sherlock´s weak state would deterriorate beyond any help.

And also:

I believe that Sherlock was full of emotions in that TEH scene too. He sincerely wished for reconcilliation. Whatever method he used to reach that reconcilliation, I still see his motive for acting that way as benign.
John beat Sherlock because he lost control over the situation, so there was no motive for beating him beforehand, but after that deed was done, he used it to make Sherlock suffer with his cruel and unjust accusation. This did not elevate his own grief in the long run, but made even the life of somebody elese miserable beyond measure - and that in the situation, when the other party was already blaming itself for John´s pain.

ancientsgate wrote:

I'm coming late to this discussion, but just wanted to say that I hated what John did to Sherlock. h-a-t-e-d it. Especially the kicking. I can't imagine in god's name what Gatiss was thinking of to include such a thing in "our" show. The Sherlock-John friendship is the biggest draw for me to make me watch, and now he's killing it. Hate it. Hate all of that. Not sure if I'll be watching anymore after next Sunday, if this 3rd ep is as bad as the last 2. Ugh.

I hope that the opening up of John at the end of an episode, his final decision to speak about his problems, his gving way to tears marked the end of this violent behaviour towards Sherlock.... that this was the real catharsis he was searching for.
Othervise it would really look like Sherlock is emotionally chained to a bully.
 

I have always hated the "drama queen" moment and found it terribly unfair. 

In TST we have John calling Sherlock an "arsehole" in the presence of the Welsboroughs. To me this was a new level of not good. John has called Sherlock an utter cock, a dick, all sorts of things. But he always did so when they were alone or in the presence of friends. Saying this in front of (posh) clients feels like overstepping a line to me. But then we have discussed that John quite often seems OOC in this series. 
 

I would say they are quite bully, the both of them, if you want to use that term. Mental and emotional manipulation can be just as damaging and hurtful as physical violence.

I will admit I've not read all of this thread, and I try to stay away... because damn, it triggers me. 

I will never forgive John for this. And it's not just about the scene where he kicks Sherlock when hes literally lying down. 

The last Baker Street scene... Sherlock stuttering; him trying to keep John sweet and praising him for making the deduction. I recognized something in that. Something I never wanted to see 

I am aware that there's a huge chance Benedict was playing Sherlock as going through withdrawals and being vulnerable... but I saw more. 

(as ever I'm over-sharing... so forgive me)

But I saw an abuse victim. I saw the nervous jitters... the fear of it happening again... the need to praise the other person, the fear that any word, any movement you make trigger them; trying not to remind them that they went too far with you... that something you do was what caused it to happen in the first place (which is so not true). 



Like I said, I might be looking too deep... but this is what I saw

nakahara wrote:

Well, when I compare both scenes, I still can´t see how Sherlock´s behaviour was worse than John´s.

I am really not able to tell exactly why I consider mental manipulation worse then physical violence (up to some extend). I just feel it this way.   Yes Sherlock wanted reconciliation which was John not prepared or willing to give at the time so he forced him to do it under death stress. Would it be in reality forgotten in next minute? I do not think so. But if John did not want to kill Sherlock, he had to accept this , but not with healthy laughter more with resignation. 

I think that the state of Sherlock (both physical and mental was also one of reason that lead to beating Sherlock up) . You can see from the beginning that John was upset, did not believed Sherlock , expected another trick from his side how to force him where Sherlock wanted to have him (as a result of the past experience including the bomb, so not easily forgotten). In fact it was a trick but I must admit that now for the first time really selfless irrespective of selfdestruction (even if I suspect Sherlock using drugs also as a way how to deal with  Mary's death, at least at the beginning). But John could not have known it. He was just angry that Sherlock adds his personal problems to his own , destroyed himself with druggs and now wants include John  to the solution while he is not even ablo to solve his own.
Sherlock was ill but he did it to himself, he knew where drugs lead so no excuses, no regret. If he wants to destroy himself, it is up to him but John might have feel it as another manipulation from Sherlock . 

Sherlock was already accusing himself from Mary's death, nothing prolonged , they just had to say it to be able to speak about it. It is not fair to blame John in his situation that he does not care much of his friend feelings when he was not able to deal with his feelings. 

I think we cannot come to an agreement in this as our point of view is totally oposite I understand what you are saying just feel it  different way. 

But what I really liked was the scene in the hospital after John saved Sherlock from CS. There was the  manipulation from Sherlock side revealed   but it was delivered in such cute and acceptable way that was clear that  John is happy it happened (I do not mean now that Sherlock almost died which counts a lot, of course, too)