BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » John's violence

Vhanja · January 10, 2017 11:00 am

I'm watching the "Behind the scenes" for this episode, where Martin and Ben talk about this scene. What Martin is saying is basically what we've talked about here:

[Paraphrasing]They have both hit a low point of their lives and their relationship. John puts all the blame on Sherlock, because that's easier than seeing the more nuanced truth (and deal with his own guilt). When he sees Sherlock lose it over Faith, he starts wondering if he's just been lured in by a drug addict, and he then releases all his anger into a cathartic kind of beating.

Sherlock doesn't fight back, partly because he senses John needs this, and partly because of his own self-loathing[/Paraphrase end]

I think we are rather good, hit the nail right on the head.

nakahara · January 10, 2017 11:04 am

NoShipSherlock wrote:
I don't think this is a repeated pattern of abuse, I think it was a one time event and as I stated above, used as a plot device to break both men so they could reconcile.

I wonder about that. Because I think there were signs in the show that John´s prevalence for violence is a bit not good - in numerous episodes.

Here are some examples of John´s physical and verbal attacks on other people. The first attact was directly provoked by Sherlock, but what about all the other stuff?

Are those really just isolated incidents? Or is it something evolving here?
And is it only a coincidence that Sherlock sees John as aggressive towards him in his own head in TAB?

Liberty · January 10, 2017 11:31 am

Good list, Nakahara. I think we're meant to see it as an acceptable failing, though.

Vhanja · January 10, 2017 11:39 am

I don't think anything is evolving. I agree with Liberty, I think it's meant to be seen as an accaptable failing. I don't think we are meant to be looking at these things too seriously, neither John's violence nor Sherlock's manipulation. It's upped for tv.

Preceja · January 10, 2017 12:10 pm

What is violent on calling somebody a drama queen? Maybe I just do not understant the phrase correctly but it seems to me it is just description of a person who prefers to act rather then think about everything in advance and thus it was also translated.

NoShipSherlock · January 10, 2017 1:18 pm

Nakahara, your list shows many correct incidents of John being angry and violent, but I don't know hat I would classify them as abusive. He definitely as anger issues and tends to handle emotions by shouting or getting physical. John needs some anger management classes for sure!
I think it goes back to the head vs. heart portrayal. John tends to be quick to fly off the handle and to be more physical. Sherlock tends to be more calculated and less likely to resort to physical violence unless absolutely necessary. Both men have killed someone.
These are flawed heros both, but I think that is what makes them interesting characters.
These parts are so beautifully acted as well, making some situations all the more heartbreaking to watch.
I wonder if the show 's creators analyze things this much?

Last edited by NoShipSherlock (January 10, 2017 1:20 pm)

NoShipSherlock · January 10, 2017 1:26 pm

As for the drama queen quote--I don't think that is abusive, and there was nothing particularly violent about that scene other than shouting. Besides, Sherlock does seem to need that pressure to actually solve a case. He has done this numerous times. Not until someone is in extreme danger and he HAS to find the solution does his brain allow him to come up with the right answer.

Liberty · January 10, 2017 1:40 pm

I'm one of the few who thinks that the drama queen comment was actually spot on, and helpful.

Vhanja · January 10, 2017 1:59 pm

Haha, me too. I think he hit the nail on the head with that comment.

Kae Em · January 10, 2017 2:07 pm

Vhanja wrote:
I'm watching the "Behind the scenes" for this episode, where Martin and Ben talk about this scene.

Where can I find this video you mentioned? It's not one of the clips on the BBC homepage, as far as I could tell, or is it? Sounds very interesting.

Vhanja · January 10, 2017 2:17 pm

I found it here:

http://anything-sherlock.com/post/155663071382/the-lying-detective-behind-the-scenes-video

Kae Em · January 10, 2017 3:39 pm

Vhanja wrote:
I found it here:

http://anything-sherlock.com/post/155663071382/the-lying-detective-behind-the-scenes-video

Thank you! I'm going to watch it as soon as possible

Vhanja · January 10, 2017 3:41 pm

No worries.

I just found this: a beautifully written text/meta about John's from TLD - or John in general. Such a lovely perspective, I agree with every word.

http://sherlocksbestfriend-john.tumblr.com/post/155671101236/tldjohn-or-just-john

Liberty · January 10, 2017 4:20 pm

Well written, but I think it's falling into the same trap when comparing Sherlock and John. There was absolutely no vindictiveness, no desire to hurt, in Sherlock either drugging John, or faking suicide (or even, it's not violence, but it's sometimes brought up in this context, lying about the bomb). He does those things for the greater good. I just can't understand why people see that as the same as beating somebody up in anger, to deliberately cause them pain and injury for no benefit apart from getting it out of your system. The closest comparism is Sherlock torturing the CIA agent, which is definitely not OK (but kind of OK in that world).

(But also, somebody having done something wrong, doesn't make them deserving of violence. Even Sherlock's "self-loathing", even if he believes he deserved it, he doesn't. John does admit in the end that it wasn't Sherlock's fault that Mary died. And I know the writer isn't arguing that Sherlock deserved it, but I thought I'd throw that in!)

I don't agree that we have difficulty accepting John being human. I thought the texting was very human and very understandable. It certainly wasn't done to deliberately hurt anyone.

Yitzock · January 10, 2017 4:25 pm

I think you have already said pretty much everything I could have said about this topic. John seems to resort to lashing out physically when he feels anger. It's one of his flaws, and when he beats Sherlock up in The Lying Detective it is an extreme example of that, since it is heightened by his grief. He's never actually done that before, so I think it has to do with his trouble processing emotions, even if he does know to get help from a therapist.

Perhaps the moment in the drug den was a bit unwarranted, but I think in that situation he was relying on what he learned in the military. He was on a mission, so that was his way of thinking.

I don't think we can rope in the "drama queen" comment with it. I don't think it's violent, like the other examples it is included with. That moment is an example of how John is a person who can bring Sherlock back to the ground when he goes too far or gets a bit too dramatic. He keeps Sherlock in check, from going even more over the top.

besleybean · January 10, 2017 4:46 pm

All I can say again is, I really hope this is the last we've seen of John;s violence...though there may not be much time left, anyway.

Yitzock · January 10, 2017 5:11 pm

Yes, I hope that it will not escalate again in the way that we just saw. Perhaps that was his breaking point and after getting past that things might be able to get better.

Liberty · January 10, 2017 5:52 pm

I do think that's it. In relation to Sherlock, anyway. I'm sure if, for instance, anyone threatened Rosie, he'd be dangerous.

Vhanja · January 10, 2017 7:49 pm

Yeah, Ben mentions the same in that behind the scenes. He said he didn't think their relationship would ever become like that again.

Preceja · January 10, 2017 9:46 pm

Liberty wrote:
There was absolutely no vindictiveness, no desire to hurt, in Sherlock either drugging John, or faking suicide (or even, it's not violence, but it's sometimes brought up in this context, lying about the bomb). He does those things for the greater good. I just can't understand why people see that as the same as beating somebody up in anger, to deliberately cause them pain and injury for no benefit apart from getting it out of your system.

It is interesting how different people has different measure what is still acceptable for them or understable and what is too much.
For me the scene in the underground, Sherlock's lying about the bomb is much worse than beating up Sherlock.
What did John do, it was in stress, full of emotions, unprepared. I do not believe that he really wanted to injure badly but might have.
Sherlock with the bomb was cold calculation, to force John forgive him in the minute of death. It could have been dangerous, too, heart attack or something. It was not for greater good, just selfish wish, great manipulation,mental violence. I was really surprised that John did not punch him one last time and did not leave for good. I would do it being him.

He was needed in next episodes so he resigned but this scene is still something hardly acceptable for me.

Last edited by Preceja (January 10, 2017 9:47 pm)