BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » First Impressions...

Liberty · January 9, 2017 1:57 pm

I missed that too! I'll look out for it second time round. I kind of like the idea of Mycroft and Lady Smallwood. A very attractive couple. Although I had head-canoned Mycroft as gay, and Lady S is recently bereaved. She might be just messing with him.

Just talking about first impressions - I was completely thrown by the therapist being acted by Sian Brooke! And then Culverton's daughter, who I was sure was going to be Sian Brooke, not being Sian Brooke! It all became clear in the end.

I'm kind of pleased that the creepy nurses were real (I think) - I was hoping for that! And they weren't John's exes in the end!

First time round, I was really touched by Sherlock looking after "Faith". He did seem protective and caring. "I'm not sweet, I'm high"! I will watch it with new eyes now I know the truth.

Schmiezi · January 9, 2017 2:00 pm

One serious question: where do so many of you see that Sherlock loves Irene? I can understand John believing that. But what do we get? Sherlock gets texts from her occasionally and sometimes he answers to one.
Where is the big love story in this one???

Pops · January 9, 2017 2:13 pm

OK, second time watching and here are my complementary notes, with many quotes !

- TD12 ? Reused in TFP, maybe on Eurus ?
- Sherlock about false Faith : "living in isolation, no human contact" it confirms the theory of an institution of some kind
- "Stop talking. It makes me aware of your existence."
- "I'm still catching up with my brain. It's terribly fast."
- "Sherlock ! You're going out ?
I think I remember the way, it's through there, isn't it ?"
- on the CCTV, Sherlock is clearly alone. Where is false Faith ?
- "Your own death is something that happens to everybody else"
- "What's the matter with you ? Are you having an earthquake ?"
- "The boot was mean !"
- "When have you managed two opinions ? You'd fall over !"
- "I'm worried about you Molly, you seem very stressed.
I'm stressed, you're dying.
Yeah, well, I'm ahead, then. Stress can ruin every day of your life. Dying can only ruin one."
- According to Mycroft, we know that Sherlock has obsessions and that he set a man-trap for Father Christmas !
- "Get out of my house, you reptile !"
- "People always give up after three" : a fourth Holmes brother ?

ewige · January 9, 2017 2:24 pm

Schmiezi wrote:
One serious question: where do so many of you see that Sherlock loves Irene? I can understand John believing that. But what do we get? Sherlock gets texts from her occasionally and sometimes he answers to one.
Where is the big love story in this one???

I love Irene. Every time Sherlock doesn't answer her text, he's sending a message nonetheless - she is special to him. I don't know under which circumstances he would reply but I don't blame him for turning (however insignificantly) amid all the angst and lonelinness to one person who unserstands him.

My interpretation is that it's a flaming passion affair - but on the intellectual level. I'm just loving it. This is something Sherlock can't have with other people (well, apart from Moriarty). John (or Mary in his head, so it's John in the end) misinterprets that a little - out of his own hurt and maybe because he cares for Sherlock deeply and thinks a relationship would be beneficial for him.

Liberty · January 9, 2017 2:31 pm

Schmiezi wrote:
One serious question: where do so many of you see that Sherlock loves Irene? I can understand John believing that. But what do we get? Sherlock gets texts from her occasionally and sometimes he answers to one.
Where is the big love story in this one???

I don't think he really loves her - they didn't really even get to that stage (they had a very few meetings). But it's the one time we really see him fall from somebody, romantically. The texts are a lot further than he has got with any other love interest, because there aren't any other love interests. He has even kept her text alert sound. Even in TAB he's carrying her picture around in his mind! I think it's clear that he fancies her and thinks fondly of her, but still won't let himself have any romantic entanglements. John thinks that he should. I think we might get the true answer as to why he won't let himself in TFP. But anyway. Irene is kind of a symbol of the fact that Sherlock does have a romantic heart, feelings, desires, etc., but shuts them away. He has never let it be a big love story.

ewige · January 9, 2017 2:34 pm

Liberty wrote:
He has even kept her text alert sound.

Well, didn't he mention in ASiB that he couldn't do anything about them?
In any case, I was wondering yesterday whether Sherlock still has the same phone since ASiB. Doesn't sound likely! So he must have set up the alert sound on his new iPhone by himself

Vhanja · January 9, 2017 2:41 pm

Schmiezi wrote:
One serious question: where do so many of you see that Sherlock loves Irene? I can understand John believing that. But what do we get? Sherlock gets texts from her occasionally and sometimes he answers to one.
Where is the big love story in this one???

I don't think that Sherlock loves Irene. But the fact that he confesses that he occasionally replies - and that he phrases it as a confession of sorts, is quite telling.

Not necessarily that his feelings towards Irene are strong, but that he do actually crave or want some kind of romantic/flirtious contact. That he likes that kind of attention, and sometimes indulges in it.

That is far from the "I am married to my work" Sherlock from the first season - even far from the Sherlock in ASiB!

Liberty · January 9, 2017 2:44 pm

But it fits perfectly with Sherlock in TAB!

ewige wrote:
Liberty wrote:
He has even kept her text alert sound.

Well, didn't he mention in ASiB that he couldn't do anything about them?
In any case, I was wondering yesterday whether Sherlock still has the same phone since ASiB. Doesn't sound likely! So he must have set up the alert sound on his new iPhone by himself

Yes, I imagined that she'd changed her number too, so he must have gone to some effort to transfer the sound over!

Lola Red · January 9, 2017 3:56 pm

ewige wrote:
Whisky wrote:
Rewatching. This I did miss the first time The dialogue between Mycroft and Lady Smallwood.
M: "I have, I think, apologized extensively."
L S: "You haven't made it up to me."
M: "How am I supposed to do that?"
different scene, Euros/c.'s daughter: "Sex."

So someone of the writers had this imagine in his mind? Ha!

That transition was pretty jarring for me! Steven must have giggled like a schoolgirl writing it and Mark while reading it :D

I must admit, combined with that scene where both of them put their coats on in his office, I am tempted to think that Lady Smallwood got compensated for the inconveniences that Mycroft caused her...

Edit: But I cannon believe that Mycroft would even contemplate anything more that a quick shag at the office. How often has his love for Sherlock almost brought him down. I do not think we would risk any further sentimental attachment to anyone. In contrast to Sherlock, for Mycroft the phrase "alone is what protects me" is actually true

Last edited by Lola Red (January 9, 2017 4:18 pm)

stoertebeker · January 9, 2017 3:59 pm

Due to simply not enough time I haven’t managed (yet) to participate in the TST discussion *sigh* . But after yesterday’s episode I really need to communicate with others.

Seriously, I think there is something wrong with me. Despite all the criticism towards TST here in the forum, generally in the fandom or within “official” episode reviews, I personally really really liked TST. I enjoyed all parts of the plot, I was at no point in any way disappointed and had only minor headscratchers.
BUT I have – sadly - some issues with TLD . I would really like to be as euphoric and happy about yesterday’s episode like the rest of you, but I simply can’t. It’s not that I don’t like it, but this episode really gives me a hard time. The emotional impact is the one thing that bothers me (which of course isn’t a bad thing at all) but there are also several things that seemed implausible or inconclusively to me. As I said, maybe there is something wrong with me, as I’m apparently the only one that has issues with the episode.

First of all some things I liked in the episode:

The performances of the whole cast were amazing - especially Benedict and Martin of course, but also Toby Jones did a great job. His Culverton Smith was such a creepy and repelling character! I also enjoyed Sian Brooke’s performance immensely. Honestly, at first I didn’t recognized her as the bus lady from last week’s episode. And when Eurus led her mask down at the end of the episode, wow she was so good at that scene!
The deductions in this episode were great - very convincing and comprehensible. I also liked that Sherlock even in his drugged state was able to do his deductions properly – like he said, it’s almost a reflex for him.
Mary’s appearance as a hallucination of John’s was very moving – especially if you remember that everything she said were actually John’s (unconscious) thoughts and feelings. IMO, together with TST it was a dignified farewell of Mary Watson. I also don’t think, we’ll see her again (Amanda wasn’t seen on setlock during the filming of TFP, wasn’t she?).
John is obviously getting better at deductions – the reason why Sherlock knew about his new therapist was explained by hallucination-Mary, so John himself was able to figure it out by himself. Also he was able to deduce that Irene is still alive and about Sherlock’s birthday. So all the crime solving with Sherlock (and Mary) finally rubbed off on him.
The hug! For me, the whole scene was very moving - John’s confession towards “Mary” that he had cheated on her and that he isn’t the good man she believed he is. I think, that’s the exact moment were he finally was able to let her go. Yeah, strange, I didn’t cry while watching yesterday but I’m getting a bit teary now while writing this up. It’s really an episode that needs time to digest (at least for me).
While I’m not exactly happy with the third sibling revelation in general the cliffhanger at the end was very exciting. As I said, Sian Brooke did a great job and Eurus Holmes has a really terrifying aura. I’m really curious what will happen in the next episode.

The things, that I didn’t understand, didn’t find plausible or simply didn’t like:

Sherlock is back on drugs and even has a drug lab in his kitchen – why on earth did nobody interferes? OK, Mrs. Hudson said, she didn’t want to call the police, I understand. But she could have called Molly or Greg as friends. Or both could have checked on Sherlock frequently, they must have known that Mary’s death and the rift with John would affect him deeply. And what about Mycroft? He just observes his brother (who’s latest relapse was just a couple of weeks ago) via CCTV and does nothing more!? He even seemed oblivious of Sherlock producing drugs. Sorry, but the behaviour of all these characters weren’t plausibly to me. (Unless they were all part of Sherlock’s rescue-John-Watson-plan, but I still can’t believe they would allow Sherlock using to this extend.)
Mrs. Hudson is a great character, I really like her and I liked the way she tried to help “her boys” and how she stood up in front of Mycroft and his minions. But the police car chasing scene was IMO very much exaggerated, too much James Bond style and once again Mycroft as the deus ex machina that resolved the situation.
Lestrade was hardly there in this episode. I’m generally not happy how they treat his character in S4. In TST he looked like an idiot who isn’t able to solve one single case by himself and in TLD he just asked idiotic questions. I really miss the Lestrade from S1 and S2.
Molly hasn’t had much scenes in both episodes either. I hope we’ll see more of her next Sunday.
The scene of Culverton Smith’s confession séance was creepy, surreal and well made. But I don’t understand why anybody of his “friends” would participate and let themselves drugged with a memory affecting narcotic voluntarily. And how did Eurus got the information about these sessions to tell Sherlock about it? (By the way, the woman at the scene in the beginning (the first séance), was this Sian Brooke or the actress of the real Faith Smith?)
The setup at John’s therapist – seriously? Sherlock had everything, I mean everything (like Mrs. Hudson kidnapping him) planned two weeks in advance? That’s not plausible IMO, too many factors that couldn’t fit.
How did Sherlock placed the recording device in John’s cane? At first, I thought that the cane was still in Baker Street and that John had fetched it there before he visited Sherlock in hospital. But no, when John arrived at the flat later it seemed as if he hasn’t been there for a long time. So the cane was with him at home and Sherlock must have burgled into John’s flat to prepare the cane at some point. Very disturbing thought, but maybe he did it when John was at work.
I’m not really sure what I should make of the dialog about Irene and Sherlock’s potential feelings towards her. I don’t see any. Didn’t he said that he never replies? That scene confused me.
Also I found the revelation that it’s Sherlock birthday a bit strange. On the other hand, being reunited with John was probably the best present he could get.
I wasn’t convinced about the idea with the secret sibling back then at HLV and I still don’t like it. And now it’s not only an unknown brother but a sister! I’m seriously suspecting Moftiss to read fanfictions to get some ideas for their plots. Maybe it will work fine, we’ll see. As I said, I liked the performance at the end of TLD but I’m nevertheless not fond of the secret family member storyline.
After seeing the whole recording of Mary and hearing Sherlock’s explanation I can’t help the feeling that John has been once again manipulated by Sherlock (and Mary posthumously). I know it’s for the greater good (bringing John back to life) but it still leaves a sour taste to me.

Sorry, this was rather long now. I hope nobody gets angry with me for criticizing the episode. As I said it’s not that I don’t like it, I just have difficulties to get my head around it. I’ll definitely have to watch it again and in TFP there might be some explanations or further aspects that might reconcile me with this episode.

Liberty · January 9, 2017 4:23 pm

The actress in the initial Culverton scene was the actress playing his real daughter. It confused me, because I had suspected Sian Brooke would be playing her! I agree, it was a surreal scene, and one of the slightly off points for me - I felt the memory drug was a step too far and not necessary for the story. For that reason, I suspect memory might be a theme in TFP (Sherlock doesn't seem to remember a sister, but has a recurring dream), and that's why the scene/drug was in TLD.

As for the people voluntarily participating - it was vaguely believable. Culverton seemed to be very much based on Jimmy Savile, and one of the issues with him was that he did seem to be "untouchable" like Culverton. People just co-operated with him. All the things that seem a bit of a reach with Culverton - like him having access to children, patients, the mortuary, being friends with royalty, people in TV, police and so on covering up for him, were all true of Savile. So maybe it isn't a big step that they would co-operate with the drug thing.

Lola Red · January 9, 2017 4:37 pm

Eurus said that CS gave her the note, so I strongly suspect he did take it from his daughter after he found her writing it

Oakwood375 · January 9, 2017 5:24 pm

Okay, I've had a night to sleep on this (not much tho!) and here are my jumbled thoughts:

-This episode totally makes up for ep1! The editing was good, the flow was good, the acting was brilliant, and the plot was fantastic! I'm so excited to see TFP, but trying not to think about it being the last for awhile. Only major complaint: wished for more Lestrade and Molly.
-Got drawn in right away, unlike the last episode
-Felt a little bad for John about ghost Mary. Like PunchMeInTheFace said a few pages earlier, I had a fanfic idea for John hallucinating Sherlock in the same way as this episode and always being heartbroken when he realizes each time he's gone (I know, lots of angst), but never followed through because I'm an awful writer.
-Sherlock had a lot of character development in this episode. Even high, he still was kind and recognized how suicidal lady in red was and wanted to help
-Mixed feelings on John. He's obviously messed up if he still see's Ghost!Mary, but beating Sherlock up because he can't accept her death? nOT okay
-Hudders wins the episode IMO. Loved the car scene, loved her lines, love her thoughts on Sherlock.
-The reptile line had a completely different meaning than we thought, but I think she meant it just like John and others referred to Sherlock as a "machine."
-Did not see Lady Smallwood X Mycroft coming!
-Or Sherrinford as a sister
-On Sherrinford, we don't actually know for sure that Sherrinford=Euros. I've seen the 4th brother theory all over Tumblr, but I really hope it's a code word. It would be like Moftiss to take whats canon (even if not ACD) and put a twist on it.
-Culverton, ugh! I was really worried for Sherlock for awhile there. Hats off to Toby Jones, his villain scared me more than CAM
-Aw, the hug! I don't ship, but if that somehow led to Johnlock, I wouldn't be terribly surprised Johnlock aside, it was great to see a little reconciliation, though I think John still owes Sherlock

So many things to look forward to next week! I can't wait to rewatch this episode and see TFP!

Rache · January 9, 2017 5:41 pm

Whisky wrote:
Rewatching. This I did miss the first time The dialogue between Mycroft and Lady Smallwood.
M: "I have, I think, apologized extensively."
L S: "You haven't made it up to me."
M: "How am I supposed to do that?"
different scene, Euros/c.'s daughter: "Sex."

So someone of the writers had this imagine in his mind? Ha!

Me too.
This and a lot other things like these:

-Did you notice the ep started the exact same way as it ended? With the gunshot fired by Euros/therapist? (Btw I really wonder how they want to save John from certain death. Has Sherlock realised there is something wrong with the Miss Me on the note and saves him in the last second in another cliche way? Maybe she didn't fire a real gun?)

-The carpet on the floor in the therapist's house is red like blood/looks like a blood puddle. I am scared already of next week.
-In the scene where Sherlock nearly lets the Lady in her red dress leave 221B and in the last moment he realises she is possibly suicidal, there is a short flashback to the very first episode where he left John walking away from the crime scene (Lady in Pink) all alone with his walking cane. I know there has been discussion whether John was suicidal at the very beginning of ASiP, showing us his gun in the drawer and everything. Could it be that Sherlock now has realised this too? That he is feeling guilty, that he had abandoned John because he should have noticed John could have been suicidal back then? It was the same thing, John had not really an idea how to come home that night.

I have the feeling that TFP will be about emotional involvement. How Sherlock and John need each other to save the other. Solving all the mistrust and misunderstanding, hurt and lies since TRF.

I am dreading next Sunday. I have a very strong feeling that it could be the last episode ever. I have a feeling that I kind of see now where they are going. They'll bring the character development to a level where it feels finished. Final. Nothing to go on from there. Nothing to top that.
The sad thing is, if it feels finished, I think it really should be left like that. Although I know that I'll be wishing for more to come in future, I know at the same time, it would probably be the best thing to leave a beautiful story as it is.

Oh my, what will I do, if next week feels finished? It is only one week left. I'm already sad. After watching yesterday's episode I'm totally ready to believe the writers and actors who repeatedly have said it feels like the end of an era. This feeling has been creeping into me since yesterday.

Last edited by Rache (January 9, 2017 5:42 pm)

besleybean · January 9, 2017 5:55 pm

Okay guys that's me back here for a second visit, so glad you only got to 7 pages!
This time I'll go right back through and see if I am inspired by your comments!
One thing I know I forgot to say this morning: the dead Mary scenario very much reminded me of the TV show Randall & Hopkirk deceased, which I loved- anybody else?
I think the Boss's 'Aargh' summed up the episode pretty well!
As I was awake this morning, I did think: will I ever want to watch any of these episodes again? They are so traumatic!
I possibly should mention that I did actually love the episode!
I love the ' hiding in plain sight' theme.
If nothing else, surely the whole Sherlock fandom can unite over the hug? A thing of beauty.
Lowering the stakes?
Sherlock, John, Rosie, Mrs H, Molly, Mycroft...any of them are still vulnerable- as far as I'm concerned.
Oh yes. The 'f- off' and the 'bollocks' were fantastic!
Yes I liked the Lady Smallwood development, too. So Mycroft isn't gay after all? I think it would be lovely for Lady S to move on and she couldn't pick any better than Mycroft. I hope he follows it up. That will be all the main boys on the pull!
I understood it that Mycroft was supposed to be keeping Sherrinford under control...so as I said in my first post: what happened there?
Well I'm smug because I never really doubted Mary, knew she would come through good.
Oh yes, the line about Molly and dead people...classic!
I got the Henry V straight away, loved it!
Mary instructed Sherlock to find a baddie who would put him in danger, because that would bring John running. Sherrinford told Sherlock about Culverton.
Holmes and Watson...the best friendship in literary, TV and cinematic history.
Next week will be all Sherrinford and with a bit of Jim- either dead or alive!
Yes as the team said on the HLV commentary: John was never bored with Mary, he was just bored with suburban life.
Still do not see how anybody could possibly see any Johnlock in there: Sherlock & Irene, John & women...all the way.
Hiddles was a non-starter.
My thoughts entirely: the CS almost kissing Shrerlock thing to me was definitely making up for them cutting the CAM scene.
Did the team think this would be divisive? Possibly too much Mary? Possibly the Johnlock thing?
Yes I have to say I went onto my Facebook Sherlock groups this morning and there were a lot of quite traumatised young fan girls, because of mental health triggers etc.
But John has always wanted a relationship with a 'female Sherlock'...that's why he married Mary. He loves Sherlock for everything except his genitals!
Sherlock likes ridding the world of super creeps.
I fell into the Moriarty trap too, but only cos I'm greedy for more Andrew!
Yes girls, I'm taking the next episode to be the last.
Oh gosh, Sherlock and Sherrinford twins...

Last edited by besleybean (January 9, 2017 6:00 pm)

Liberty · January 9, 2017 6:04 pm

Oh, what a shame that people were traumatised! Here in the UK, there was a warning before the show, thankfully. (But then that's not going to stop people watching if they've been waiting for three years!). I did think even before it aired that it sounded like it could be difficult viewing. I found Culverton to be a very believable, familiar villain myself, and lots of awful things were touched on.

I thought the same as you about the hospital bed seen - and I wonder if that's the reason they left out the scene with CAM from the episode, because they decided to do something very similar with Culverton? I think this scene suited Culverton better.

January 9, 2017 6:22 pm

I havnt read any posts yet, just my first impressions

I absolutly loved the direction

I hated that Mary showed up and was so important. I dont buy that Sherlock needed Mary to tell him to be dramatic to get Johns back.

I hated that John really hit sherlock like that. I get grive an anger and wating tolash our, but this was too much in my opinion. (I dont blame John I blame the writers) I didt get John thinking that Sherlock killed Mary.

I loved Mrs Hudson. She was wunderful in this and I really liked she got some action and did it so well. I got the impression Una really had fun doing this.

I didnt like the reveal about the sister. Just how many "extraordinary" children can there be in a family.

And I didnt like the plot that much either. so the daughter was drugged, wrote down a few words and rembered enough of it to show it to the sister, the sister used this to get to know sherlock and sherlock to get back John. Just a bit too much for my liking.

And Mycroft thinks the sister is locked up safely and doesnt notice she is Johns psychiatrist. A bit unlikely.

I loved Lady smallwoods little invitation to Mycroft. I wonder if he will have that drink...

And I could have done without Irene.

I thought John had little screentime, and I wonder if he will be there next week. I do hope he doesnt spend the final problem unconsious in a hospital.

besleybean · January 9, 2017 6:33 pm

I'm back again: I loved the 'It is what it is' thing, too.
I think if Mark and Steven decide to write their characters as not gay, that's really up to them.
Oh heck and yes. Loved the music.
Can we not accept Sherlock once again was using to present himself as an easy victim to CS?
I think it was just a tad unfair of Mrs H to expect much of Mycroft re: John...that's Sherlock's job.
To be fair, she has a go at John on the 'just a housekeeper' thing.
I think Sherlock really was taking drugs, to begin with out of distress, then for the case.
No big love story with Irene. But the only person he has been interested in that way is female.
I think on the CCTV thing, false Faith might be trying to hide from Mycroft.
NO 4th Holmes bro.
The team(including Benedict) have always made it clear they believe there was attraction between Sherlock and Irene and they do show this in SIB.
The whole reason that Sherlock doesn't do realationhips is because people he loves either go, are taken or are sent away: Redbeard, Sherrinford and yes...Irene.
I think the cane was left at Baker St.
I am sure neither Mark or Steven resort to fanfics for ideas. They don't need to, they are brilliant enough. Plus they have Canon.

Last edited by besleybean (January 9, 2017 6:33 pm)

miriel68 · January 9, 2017 7:06 pm

Rache wrote:
[
(Btw I really wonder how they want to save John from certain death. Has Sherlock realised there is something wrong with the Miss Me on the note and saves him in the last second in another cliche way? Maybe she didn't fire a real gun?)

I was thinking about it and I suppose we will discover she isn't aiming at John, after all. She does use the third person pronoun "he": "he is making a funny face". Of course we assume she is talking about John, but may-be she is aiming at a picture on the wall?

besleybean · January 9, 2017 7:07 pm

I think she is speaking about John, but there may be more on the shooting...