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January 3, 2016 3:40 pm  #161


Re: The greatest friendship in fiction

And he even flat out states that John is clever in the Reichenbach scene. And it's nice to finally see John in the Mind Palace. 

What I found particularly intrigueing is how Holmes responded to Watson's account of himself, adopting it as part of his identity, even though Watson didn't quite believe it. We all construct some kind of story of our own identities, and this was an interesting illustration of that. 

I think it also highlights Sherlock as an unreliable narrator, which he can be of course. He created this image of himself, using John's stories if necessary, but we all know it's not entirely accurate, which is probably what's so attractive in that character. (I for once didn't believe for a second that Sherlock wasn't afraid that Mycroft was angry. Incidentally, Mycroft's addict handling skills suddenly seem to have dramatically improved compared to HLV. )

 

January 3, 2016 3:48 pm  #162


Re: The greatest friendship in fiction

True about Mycroft.  I suppose a few minutes ago, it was possible that he was going to lose his brother for ever.   And then five minutes ago, he was going to get him back after all.  And then he gets him back only to find he's taken a dangerous overdose - no wonder he has a different level of concern from usual!

But yes, I was going round in circles a bit with Sherlock adopting the persona John gives him, because of course that's the ACD persona from The Strand stories, and that doesn't exist in Sherlock's universe - John didn't write that!  Sherlock obviously feels that Victorian Watson would.    But of course, Victorian Watson is in his imagination, and this is the persona he's taken on himself, rather than having been given by John.   We see it in episode one, before John has written anything about him - he's calling himself a high-functioning sociopath.  Yes, he's an unreliable narrator right from the beginning.  The calculating machine might be what he aspires to be, but he knows it's not what he is, and apparently John knows too, or so Sherlock thinks.

 

 

January 3, 2016 3:58 pm  #163


Re: The greatest friendship in fiction

You summed that up very well, Liberty. I don't know if there's anything else I can say.  I think it goes back to how Sherlock knows he is, how he wants John to see him that way, how he hopes he does.  Or perhaps their conversation is the hope that one day he will know for sure that John sees through the air he puts on of the high-functioning sociopath.  That it's partly a front, an impression he wants to give that is not his entire self.



Clueing for looks.
 

January 3, 2016 4:07 pm  #164


Re: The greatest friendship in fiction

I don't think John would love Sherlock the way he does if he really believed he was a machine.  I don't think he does believe it.   Look how worried he is about Sherlock during ASIB when he thinks he's fallen for Irene, and how he can't bring himself to tell him she's dead.   Even when Sherlock does the fake engagement thing with Janine, John is shocked - even after knowing Sherlock so well, he's still surprised when he appears to lack human feeling sometimes.   So I think he does see through him ... although not completely.  I think Sherlock is still a bit of an enigma to him.  But not an unfeeling enigma.

I feel that even in the ACD stories, the way Watson writes those lines, it sounds as if Holmes is trying to make himself like that rather than naturally feeling like that.  The fact that it's an issue for him makes me think that he has to suppress the feelings rather than just not having them (and he disapproves of this aspect of himself).  And Watson knows it. 

 

January 3, 2016 4:16 pm  #165


Re: The greatest friendship in fiction

I think Watson goes along with the image Holmes is trying to present of himself but he doesn't buy it himself. In a way it becomes a co-creation, especially when Holmes then responds to it. 

Interesting that since it's all in the Mind Palace, Sherlock is entirely aware of this process. 

     Thread Starter
 

January 19, 2016 4:11 pm  #166


Re: The greatest friendship in fiction

I posted this quote in the debate thread, but I thought it might be nice here, for different reasons!  It's Stephen Moffat's response to the question of whether Moriarty or John needs Sherlock more:

Oh, John needs Sherlock more. I don’t think Moriarty needs anyone really. He enjoyed Sherlock as a distraction from the sheer tedium and insanity of his existence, whereas John and Sherlock have a very warm, very sincere friendship that is – certainly initially – mutually redemptive. I think they’re both saved now, in a way, so they know they don’t have to redeem each other all the time, but they are just very, very, very good friends. [It’s] relatively rare to portray your central relationship in a show as a friendship, so that’s quite special, I think.
(from Arianne de Vere).

I really like the comment about their relationship being mutually redemptive.

 

January 19, 2016 5:03 pm  #167


Re: The greatest friendship in fiction

I loved Steven saying this and heartily agree.
The very essence of Sherlock Holmes' stories.
Thank you for posting it.


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January 19, 2016 6:33 pm  #168


Re: The greatest friendship in fiction

I really like that comment, too.  Let's hope the the two of them, Sherlock and John, can keep it that way, and not lose sight of it.



Clueing for looks.
 

January 19, 2016 6:41 pm  #169


Re: The greatest friendship in fiction

I just did a check to see that this the non-Johnlock thread.
I really want to post in threads where we can all take part, but we seem to be having really good discussion here!


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January 19, 2016 6:44 pm  #170


Re: The greatest friendship in fiction

I'm curious to see where it will go.  Mycroft seems to have put John in a caretaking role ... again.

 

January 19, 2016 6:47 pm  #171


Re: The greatest friendship in fiction

Well I hope John never stopped caring. Tee Hee.
But seriously, it's a difficult one...he has a wife and baby to care for now.


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January 20, 2016 12:19 am  #172


Re: The greatest friendship in fiction

I don't think they could stop caring for each other, but I certainly hope that they don't forget this: "they don’t have to redeem each other all the time"

That would be very sad, I think, if one of them forgot this.

Last edited by Yitzock (January 20, 2016 12:20 am)



Clueing for looks.
 

January 20, 2016 7:04 am  #173


Re: The greatest friendship in fiction

I agree, and hope that each of them remember that they don't need to be redeemed. 

I do think they always care, but I was thinking about the caretaking role - we see Mycroft hand that to John in ASIB in particular (checking the house for drugs, breaking the news about Irene - or not), and then again in TAB.  Caretaking rather than caring, if you see what I mean.  I suppose Mycroft needs John to do the legwork.   I thought the way John tried to look after Sherlock in ASIB was lovely, but there have been suggestions in the addiction thread that some people (in fanfiction mainly, I think ) see it become much more intrusive, parental and controlling. 

 

January 20, 2016 7:06 am  #174


Re: The greatest friendship in fiction

Tough love.


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January 29, 2016 7:23 pm  #175


Re: The greatest friendship in fiction

I posted this in the debate thread, but I think it fits even better here.  Steven Moffat (Comic Con 2015) (part of the answer to why Sherlock Holmes is so enduring and what is unique about their take):

We're always going to be in love with .... the sheer warmth and gravity and strength of that friendship.  That instant, unmoveable, unchanging friendship between these two men whom nobody else would ever say should even meet.  They are just, from the moment they meet until decades later, absolutely steadfast friends.  Whatever their failings individually, together they make such a lovely unit.

 

 

January 29, 2016 9:38 pm  #176


Re: The greatest friendship in fiction

I don't read the debate thread anymore, so thanks for posting this here.

That quote made me feel all warm inside.



Clueing for looks.
 

January 29, 2016 9:39 pm  #177


Re: The greatest friendship in fiction

Aw...


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January 9, 2017 10:51 am  #178


Re: The greatest friendship in fiction

I have to bump this thread up again, after ... that hug in TLD!  What a moment!  The whole episode was centred around John and Sherlock reconciling, and this was just a lovely conclusion.  And John urging Sherlock to pursue (romantic) love, just as he did in Sherlock's mind in TAB. 

 

January 9, 2017 4:46 pm  #179


Re: The greatest friendship in fiction

Yes, no greater loving friendship.
John wants Sherlock to find love with Irene and be happy, just as he had the love with Mary.
They live dangerous lives, they do not know how long they have and need to grab happiness where they can.


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January 9, 2017 5:01 pm  #180


Re: The greatest friendship in fiction

Yes, I loved that in the end John is frustrated that Sherlock won't give into his romantic feelings about a live person, but also urges him to follow those feelings.  It reminds me of the comments from the HLV commentary about John just wanting to Sherlock to have a girlfriend and be happy.  And of course, although Sherlock was dismissive of John's girlfriends normally, he did his best to protect Mary and keep her and John together too.  He wanted him to be happy too. 

I think their at a place now where they can go into TFP as a team, hopefully. 

I would still like John to do something wonderful for Sherlock, though.  I know he saved him TLD, but only just, and without much risk to himself.  I just feel the balance isn't even at the moment.   But maybe it doesn't need to be.

 

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