BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » John's violence

besleybean · January 9, 2017 7:29 am

It is absolute abuse and I have whole issues with this kind of 'male violence' altogether.
But hey, at least John didn't shoot Sherlock.
But I know. This is worse. They seem to think it makes good TV...
But at least they hugged!

RavenMorganLeigh · January 9, 2017 8:24 am

besleybean wrote:
It is absolute abuse and I have whole issues with this kind of 'male violence' altogether.
But hey, at least John didn't shoot Sherlock.
But I know. This is worse. They seem to think it makes good TV...
But at least they hugged!

Thank goodness for that!

But the hug-- in a way, almost makes it worse.

We all know the story. Husband beats wife. Then feels remorse. (Which we haven't seen from John) They hug it out, and hubby is tender, loving, etc, etc, etc, ... until something sets him off again. Rinse, repeat.

Question: Do you think his violence is exacerbated by the drinking? John has not been in a good place, his daughter is staying with friends, he's drinking alone in a dark house-- and ... wallowing. Not talking to anyone. That's a recipe for disaster. Also-- does anyone think that he might not feel like having Rosie with him is safe? It'd make sense.

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (January 9, 2017 8:25 am)

Liberty · January 9, 2017 8:34 am

I think I kind of made peace with it after The Empty Hearse. I didn't think it was OK then, but the writers did, and I have come to some sort of understanding that it's more acceptable within this universe.

I don't think it's acceptable at all in real life. And in both cases, I feel that Sherlock acted very much like somebody who expected abuse (i.e. in an abusive relationship).   This was not a good old "let's get it out of our system" man to man fistfight, like you see in see in some films, with the guys ending up hugging at the end. It was one sided. I can't imagine Sherlock doing that to John for any reason, ever.    In both cases, Sherlock just wants forgiveness from John, and will take any abuse to get there ... last night, as well, he was putting his life at risk for John. Again.    John doesn't apologise and I don't even know how he could - what he did is shameful, horrible. If it was real life.

However, as I've said, I came to terms with it in this universe, with John's character a while ago.   I think it's meant to be the understandable result of grief and a short fuse.   So I'm letting it go!

RavenMorganLeigh · January 9, 2017 8:41 am

The thing is-- up till now, Mofftiss have made John's violence towards Sherlock a joke.
This wasn't a joke-- the tone was completely different, very dark. Does that mean that we're still supposed to write it off? Or finally take it seriously?

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (January 9, 2017 8:42 am)

Preceja · January 9, 2017 8:54 am

What are you talking about?

This was an extreme situation. John is hiding in his house, talking with his dead wife, avoiding Sherlock. He needs to get over this, And for it he needs to admit his feelings, tell what he really thinks. There are some stages of grieve.

And the same situation on the other side - Sherlock feels guilty for Mary's death,feels he deserves the worst of John, more less wants to be beaten up, be punished by John at least this way.

The scene seemed a bit too cruel to me, too. But perfectly in line with the persons and situation.

They both needed what happened to be able to restore their relationship. It does not mean that from now on they consider normal to beat up each other.

For me the apology is redundant they both know what is going on. And it is not true that Sherlock never does anything to John. He does not hesitate to test poison on him (at least in canon) or takes as granted that John accepts every situation he puts him in.

SusiGo · January 9, 2017 9:01 am

I think John's violence as such may be understandable, but it is extreme. Kicking a drugged man who is already lying on the floor does indeed overstep a mark. Knowing Moftiss, this may be considered acceptable since there have been many situations that were treated in a similar way (John in TEH, Molly slapping Sherlock, the Magnussen murder).

What I think is that John acts out of self-loathing as much as anger towards Sherlock. His life during the last years has been hell and explodes in this very moment with every disappointment, betrayal, and heartbreak. And it is, as always, still about the fall as well.

That said, it does not really sit well with me but I think this may be the way the writers treat such situations.

Preceja · January 9, 2017 9:13 am

What seems much worse to me was the situation in TEH when Sherlock let John think they were dying to force John to forgive him. I was really surprised that John did not punch him again after that.

It was not physical violence from Sherlock but mental (is it the correct word for it ?) which may be worse sometimes.

Liberty · January 9, 2017 9:30 am

I don't think Sherlock did that to try to hurt John at all.

This Is The Phantom Lady · January 9, 2017 9:34 am

I 'understand' where it came from... John does not really have the healthiest coping mechanisms and even his new therapist was treating him the wrong way. He had a lot of pent up anger.

Fine.

But there is no excuse for beating someone up so severely. When would he have stopped if no one intervened??

And what truly broke me was Sherlock just accepting it.

It's not okay and it's not something I will be able to forgive. Not John and not our dear writers. This was out of line. This was... perverted

Vhanja · January 9, 2017 9:50 am

I reacted to this as well. I could understand John pushing up against the wall, and even the first slap - to try and knock him out of his near-hysteria (and to actually defend the attacks of what John by then thought was an innocent man).

But repeatedely kicking a man who is already on the ground until several men had to drag him off? No, that is not okay.

I am trying to understand what is going on, though. As other people have said, John doesn't have any healthy coping mechanisms. He can't deal with emotions, so he represses them and bottles it all up until it just explodes. And again and again, Sherlock is the whipping boy for his anger.

I don't think Sherlock deserved it, not this time. However, I do not think we are looking at a pattern of an abusive relationship (I saw that line of thinking on Tumblr yesterday already). If we do, then it goes both ways - where John hits, Sherlock uses psychological and emotional manipulation.

They are both dysfunctional when it comes to emotions. I am really glad they finally, finally, had a proper talk. I do think that cleared the air a bit, and I think we have seen quite a bit of development in both of them.

I do still think John ows Sherlock an apology, though.

Preceja · January 9, 2017 9:57 am

I think that the kicking - it was something that John already did not have under control. He allowed his emotions to go out and it was too much , after too long for him to be able to cope with.

But I do not think that Sherlock was so defenceless. He wanted this happen but would be able to defend himself if it seemed to be dangerous. He is not a victim.

Liberty · January 9, 2017 10:01 am

I don't think it was Sherlock's responsibility to defend himself ... but anyway, the point of this case was to save John. I think he deliberately let John get it out of his system.

I don't think it's meant to an abusive relationship either, Vhanja, but I don't really agree that it's "even". I don't think Sherlock deliberately does things to cause John such pain/distress. The point is never to hurt him.

nakahara · January 9, 2017 10:01 am

I loved the episode immensely, but John´s behaviour in this scene is indeed inexcusable.

He easily subdued Sherlock and took a scalpel from him. There was no actual need for him to turn berserk on Sherlock. Also, once again - a doctor should never be violent towards the person who is so physically weak and ruined. Yet John does it without hesitation.

And it felt as if his punches came from real hatred towards Sherlock. Which is absolutely terrible of him. Norbury was the one who actually killed his wife - and did he turn physical on her? No. Mary actually shot Sherlock in HLV and did he retaliated so viciously against her. No. Yet Sherlock was shot at by the criminal which, although it resulted in Mary´s fatal injury, was an attempt at Sherlock´s life not Mary´s - and he should be punished so viciously for it? WTF?

And an excuse that he just needed to let go of steam.... are we serious? Then why should we condemn other abusers? If Mary was the one being punched repeatedly and kicked while on the ground, we would never even try to excuse it - so why do it when the victim is male?

No, I think we should admit that John has a dangerously violent streak, that this is the problem and that Sherlock should never again be subjected to the violence from his side if their friendship should continue. Sherlock just can´t be John´s whipping boy whenever John tries to "let loose some steam". Or he should at least retaliate - I have a feeling John only targets him since he knows Sherlock would not defend himself.

Vhanja · January 9, 2017 10:07 am

Liberty wrote:
I don't think it's meant to an abusive relationship either, Vhanja, but I don't really agree that it's "even". I don't think Sherlock deliberately does things to cause John such pain/distress. The point is never to hurt him.

Even if it isn't his intent, it's still the outcome.

I don't think we should excuse neither mental/emotional manipulation nor physical violence. None of them are any good, and both are born out of a dysfunctional relationship to emotions.

nakahara · January 9, 2017 10:10 am

Preceja wrote:
But I do not think that Sherlock was so defenceless. He wanted this happen but would be able to defend himself if it seemed to be dangerous. He is not a victim.

So if a battered wife says that it´s OK that her dear husband beat her to a pulp, we would accept it and would regard the man as innocent?

Sherlock loves John and because John can do no wrong in his eyes, he accepts violence targeted at him.

But why should we, the audience, accept the same logic?

Last edited by nakahara (January 9, 2017 10:11 am)

Preceja · January 9, 2017 10:13 am

It is different when both are male and the "victim" is bigger, stronger, able to defend, just do not want. I agree it is not acceptable with any woman.

Do you think that it is impossible that something like that happen between friends in extreme situation when one does something really bad to the other? And still be friends? Does not matter if we think that it was not Sherlock's fault. They think it and behave according to it.

nakahara - it is not becouse John can do nothing wrong in Sherlock's eyes. It is because in this case Sherlock considers it correct. I am sure he would defend himself in other situations. And he does awful things to John, too, just not evidently so violent.

Last edited by Preceja (January 9, 2017 10:18 am)

nakahara · January 9, 2017 10:19 am

No matter how big he was, he was drugged, weak, Molly confirmed he his state is so bad "he had just weeks ahead...." and he was obviously in a strange mental state, nearing hysteria.

It was quite cowardly to beat him in that state, no matter what John otherwise thought of him.

If not feelings of friendship, that at least doctor´s ethics should have held John´s hand, IMHO.

It´s merely my opinion, of course, but I feel like any attempt to excuse this behaviour leads to acceptance/excuse of abuse and I can´t shake that feeling off.

Liberty · January 9, 2017 10:19 am

Vhanja, I think the intent does matter. I can't think of a case where Sherlock has emotionally manipulated John to try to hurt him. Whereas John hits Sherlock to hurt him. It's like saying that if John had accidentally knocked Sherlock over, it would be just as abusive as the outcomes are the same. Or even if John really had been doing it to try to get Sherlock out of a hallucination (as we wondered at first). That would be a different situation - misguided, but not deliberately abusive.

To be honest, I think the team just like beaten, abused, vulnerable Sherlock. Benedict does it so beautifully.

Vhanja · January 9, 2017 10:27 am

The type of manipulation Sherlock does isn't always done to hurt someone, it is done so that the person can get their way when they know they person would say "no" if they had asked. And that is why Sherlock does it - and it ends up hurting John.

But, yeah, I don't think we are supposed to take it as seriously as we would - and should - have done in real life. It's TV.

Whisky · January 9, 2017 10:27 am

I don't think it is right, but I understand it.
It is not a good way to deal with things, but it works for them. Sherlock knows that his behaviour wasn't always right, and I think he feels guilty, for not being able to protect Mary. Even if it wasn't his fault. When something happened we didn't want to happen, we often feel guilty even if we shouldn't. I think that is half of the reason Sherlock lets John beat him. Also him using drugs and hurting John in risking in life plays a part I think. He is slowly realizing how much John cares. The other half of the reason is simply that he loves John and is ready to give him what he needs no matter the cost. He is prepared to die to save John, and also prepared to suffer if it helps John. I get the impression Sherlock cares so much about John in that moment, he honestly doesn't care about himself.

I do think John apologizes, but his apologize is beyond word. The way he breaks down and cries shows me he has only emotion left and no words, except that it is not okay (which can easily refer to everything John ever did to Sherlock). Sherlock doesn't need a further apology, that is what matters to me. Sherlock and John come the the conclusion that "it is what it is", and by that, push aside all that didn't come out even, that isn't perfect. Sherlock even tells John he is just human. And John confesses he wants to do better. And there is also " I was so alone, and I owe you so much." He is aware he owes Sherlock. But Sherlock is the amazing one here - he doesn't count favours, he just takes John just as he is.
Did Sherlock ever apologize to John that he had to shoot a man because of him? (the cabbie) Sherlock implies he had it all under control, but by now, we know he doesn't. John doesn't ask for apologies either whenever Sherlock puts him in danger. He shouts at Sherlock, but forgives him without Sherlock having to explicitely say it. E.g. in the tube scene, in the "I've heard you" scene.
I think the violence really is just John's character. Sherlock is violent to, sometimes. But I think John is more violent towards close ones, where Sherlock is often violent in fights or towards suspects.

For me, they come out even.

I am not sure about the abusing part. I think we get the impression because in these episodes, Sherlock is. not his usual self, he isn't very good in defending himself. I think Sherlock can stop John hurting him if he really wants to. The worse part is the emotional part anyway, not the violence, I guess. But I think John starts being aware that Sherlock truly needs him. He is starting to see Sherlock for what he is - just as dependant on John as the other way round. I don't think John has the upper hand here. Also John doesn't hurt Sherlock willingly, but he seems helpless, unable to deal with his emotions in another way. I find TEH worse, because there, John is so cold and distanced when hitting Sherlock. In TLD, I don't feel that bad. Dunno why.

Last edited by Whisky (January 9, 2017 10:33 am)