BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » John's anger towards Sherlock

This Is The Phantom Lady · January 6, 2017 1:25 pm

Hah!

ancientsgate · January 6, 2017 1:35 pm

Vhanja wrote:
This fits in several threads here now, but I couldn't help giggling at this:

https://asherlockstudy.tumblr.com/post/155470486037/john-accused-sherlock-of-breaking-a-vow-but-hey

Yeah. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, as they say.

Whisky · January 6, 2017 1:45 pm

I think John (and Mary) look skeptical enough when Sherlock suggests to go back to London because he can protect Mary better there. Mary had her own ideas about her safety, and maybe John had one or two ideas what to do as well.
But in the end, apparently, they let Sherlock convince them, for better or worse. Maybe there could have been a conversation off-screen like "Okay Sherlock, we're coming back, but I am really not sure it's a good idea, and please treat this seriously and not like another of your games and challenges" and Sherlock was like "of course, John, of course"... and that explains very well why Sherlock would have felt he was overconfident and John is so angry.
I also think Sherlock has been doing a good job so far (except maybe dying on John and teasing John in front of a bomb, but apart from that...), but yes, maybe this is the moment where John has to realise Sherlock is really not the hero he thought he was, and Sherlock realizes what it really means when the game gets serious.
John and Sherlock have this conversation about "being a hero", and there is also "no chance to be a hero this time, Sherlock"... so this is a big theme with Sherlock, even if he denies being one. Even Mycroft agrees ("dragon-slayer"). And Sherlock even tells John that he is not the hero, but the drama-queen, the man who loves a good game.
And if that game turns out to end deadly, well, maybe John has had enough this time.
That it was Mary's fault too, I wouldn't argue, but then, she is dead and from John's perspective hard to blame - at least in this stage of grieve, when the feeling of loss is much stronger than any rational arguments. Leaving out all rational options, for John it leaves only Sherlock to blame, justified or not.

Liberty · January 6, 2017 1:54 pm

Yes, I think you're right, Whisky. I know not everybody agrees, but I think John was on to something with the "drama queen" comment. And Sherlock's text to Mary "the curtain rises", etc. suggested he planned to put on a show.

I'd forgotten that yes, we do see him being very flippant at the beginning, considering that he has very recently murdered somebody. I know John is happy with that, but still ... I absolutely love the character of Sherlock, and I do think he's very heroic, and possibly one of the angels despite claiming not to be, but I think he still has some flaws (showing off, etc.).

Vhanja · January 6, 2017 1:55 pm

Whisky wrote:
I think John (and Mary) look skeptical enough when Sherlock suggests to go back to London because he can protect Mary better there. Mary had her own ideas about her safety, and maybe John had one or two ideas what to do as well.
But in the end, apparently, they let Sherlock convince them, for better or worse. Maybe there could have been a conversation off-screen like "Okay Sherlock, we're coming back, but I am really not sure it's a good idea, and please treat this seriously and not like another of your games and challenges" and Sherlock was like "of course, John, of course"... and that explains very well why Sherlock would have felt he was overconfident and John is so angry.
I also think Sherlock has been doing a good job so far (except maybe dying on John and teasing John in front of a bomb, but apart from that...), but yes, maybe this is the moment where John has to realise Sherlock is really not the hero he thought he was, and Sherlock realizes what it really means when the game gets serious.
John and Sherlock have this conversation about "being a hero", and there is also "no chance to be a hero this time, Sherlock"... so this is a big theme with Sherlock, even if he denies being one. Even Mycroft agrees ("dragon-slayer"). And Sherlock even tells John that he is not the hero, but the drama-queen, the man who loves a good game.
And if that game turns out to end deadly, well, maybe John has had enough this time.
That it was Mary's fault too, I wouldn't argue, but then, she is dead and from John's perspective hard to blame - at least in this stage of grieve, when the feeling of loss is much stronger than any rational arguments. Leaving out all rational options, for John it leaves only Sherlock to blame, justified or not.

My biggest problem with John's anger is that he wasn't there when Sherlock went on his provocative rant. He didn't enter the room until after Mary was shot, so he doesn't know what happened. Had he entered the room a few minutes earlier, seen what was going on, seen Mary trying to stop Sherlock, who was too lost in his own deductive arrogance, THEN his anger would've made sense.

Not saying he would've been right, but then I could at least understand his blame. As of now, I don't. In particular since Sherlock's vow was "I will always be there for all three of you" - which he was. So he didn't even break his vow.

ancientsgate · January 6, 2017 2:14 pm

Vhanja wrote:
.......... My biggest problem with John's anger is that he wasn't there when Sherlock went on his provocative rant. He didn't enter the room until after Mary was shot, so he doesn't know what happened. Had he entered the room a few minutes earlier, seen what was going on, seen Mary trying to stop Sherlock, who was too lost in his own deductive arrogance, THEN his anger would've made sense.

Not saying he would've been right, but then I could at least understand his blame. As of now, I don't. In particular since Sherlock's vow was "I will always be there for all three of you" - which he was. So he didn't even break his vow.

I thought John was there when Mary was shot. I thought everyone was, standing over there to Sherlock's right. I just watched the ep for a second time yesterday, now I need to go back and watch that scene again a couple more times.

But you know how it is, when Sherlock gets carried away and starts running his mouth, he's like a runaway train. Half the time the others in the room are in awe of him, and half the time they're rolling their eyes in a there-he-goes-again kind of reaction. Still and all, EVERYONE who was there should have respected the fact that a loaded gun was out and pointed at Sherlock. Only Mary seemed concerned about that enough to do anything.

And a final thought-- in effect, he WAS there for John and Mary, in Mary's final moments. Sherlock's words, inviting the attention of the woman holding the gun, inviting her to shoot him, not anyone else, could have been a wacky way of protecting them, just be diverting attention from them. ??

Vhanja · January 6, 2017 2:27 pm

No, he goes on with his rant, Mary tries to stop him twice, Vivian shoots, Mary takes the shot, Sherlock gets down and tries to help Mary - and THEN John comes running into the room.

It's the timing that annoys me. He has absolutely no basis for his anger - he didn't see the rant and Sherlock didn't break his vow.

Mothonthemantel · January 6, 2017 2:55 pm

I am thinking maybe Sherlock didnt go with John to fetch Mary back, it was Johns idea to track her and follow. I think Sherlock wanted to make himself the target for Ajay while Mary got away but Ajay followed John instead. So maybe Mary died in Morocco the week before and the Norbury story is what they made up for everyone else.

tonnaree · January 6, 2017 2:59 pm

Vhanja wrote:
No, he goes on with his rant, Mary tries to stop him twice, Vivian shoots, Mary takes the shot, Sherlock gets down and tries to help Mary - and THEN John comes running into the room.

It's the timing that annoys me. He has absolutely no basis for his anger - he didn't see the rant and Sherlock didn't break his vow.

Everyone keeps saying these things, but anger and grief are not rational.

Vhanja · January 6, 2017 3:02 pm

I might have been a bit unclear. I do agree (I have myself experienced sudden and shocking loss of a close one and wanting to direct my anger towards an innocent third-party, and was luckily stopped before I got to do so). So even though it bothers me, the reaction then and there can be excused.

But once he gets home, he should've been able to take a breath and think things through a bit more.

Liberty · January 6, 2017 3:17 pm

Yes, I think there are a few things going on. John's anger at Sherlock is not justified. But I don't think it matters to him too much what the circumstances were - the point was that Sherlock promised. Mary only came back to London because Sherlock promised he would keep her safe, and yet he brings her to her death (with the text) shortly after. John didn't hear what Mycroft said about Mary probably dying young anyway. If she hadn't died on that day, it might have been another day soon. I think that all John is thinking/feeling is that if it hadn't been for Sherlock, Mary would be alive.

(I'm sorry for your loss, Vhanja. That sounds really difficult).

Vhanja · January 6, 2017 3:36 pm

Oh, no worries, it was many, many years ago (yikes, I'm getting old!). I didn't bring it up to bring attention to myself, just to say that I can relate to that kind of reaction.

But, yeah, I do agree that I think it's just a general anger over the pain of it all - and Sherlock is the easiest target. It's easier to deal with pain if you have a scape goat.

besleybean · January 6, 2017 4:53 pm

Again, exactly.

nakahara · January 6, 2017 6:09 pm

Liberty wrote:
But I don't think it matters to him too much what the circumstances were - the point was that Sherlock promised.

Sherlock promised to protect the family of normal middle-class Londoners the day he made a vow. He was not aware the issue would be complicated by Mary being the super-spy and an assassin for hire with plenty of people who want her dead... a bit hard to keep your vow under such circumstances.

Ancientgate has a point in one of her above posts - during Sherlock´s speech which went on for some time, any of the assembled policemen could silently pull their gun out and shoot Norbury first. Mary with her training could easily overpower her, considering Norbury was frail and didn´t had the best of reflexes. They did nothing of the sort - and now Sherlock is the only responsible party?

besleybean · January 6, 2017 6:10 pm

I suppose John doesn't care about any of the others...

Liberty · January 6, 2017 6:20 pm

I'm not saying it's reasonable, I'm saying that's what I think he feels. If he thinks the vow no longer applies, then why does he berate Sherlock for "breaking" it?

nakahara · January 6, 2017 6:31 pm

Liberty wrote:
I'm not saying it's reasonable, I'm saying that's what I think he feels. If he thinks the vow no longer applies, then why does he berate Sherlock for "breaking" it?

Because Sherlock is an easy target for him to hurt. He knows he never retaliates, so he aims his anger at him. Some other people would probably not be so indulgent.... imagine if John tried to blame Mycroft or Lestrade. They would just say in return: "We were silent about the fact that your wife was an assassin, we let her be on the loose, we overlooked Sherlock being shot by her.... what exactly is your problem?" And he would be forced to snap his mouth shut....

besleybean · January 6, 2017 6:44 pm

Well we know John is wrong to be so angry with Sherlock, but mourners are not always terribly rational.

Liberty · January 6, 2017 6:50 pm

No, I don't honestly think it's because Sherlock is an easy target. I think it's completely heartfelt, and specifically directed at Sherlock. There's probably some anger with himself for believing it (Mary was going to die at some point anyway, and there was only so much Sherlock could do to stop that happening), but I suppose after he'd gone as far as shooting Magnussen, John just had utter faith that he could protect her.

nakahara · January 6, 2017 6:54 pm

Liberty wrote:
... but I suppose after he'd gone as far as shooting Magnussen, John just had utter faith that he could protect her.

Which brings me to this issue: didn´t Sherlock already kept his promise when he removed Magnussen from Mary´s path? He almost had to pay with his life for that one... how come John takes that for granted and demands MORE?

Last edited by nakahara (January 6, 2017 6:55 pm)